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  • The Benefits of Sino-African Economic Ties

    Originally posted by winton View Post
    Yes, I read that too, but I think he is alone in his assessment. Most African leaders and intellectuals do not agree. The net benefit to Africa has been so overwhelmingly positive since. It makes you wonder what happen to africa, for africa in the time that it was actually colonized, with its natural wealth stripped and no compensation paid for the locals. At least china has paid market value for whatever it takes. Its all a business transaction. Thats fair trade. Thats not colonialistic. Give me fair worth for my countries natural resources, and help us do things we cannot for a fee. Don't impose western values that are difficult to implement as a precondition. Thats benign.


    At the end of the day, the chinese are more welcome than the US in Africa. China will go to where its welcome.

    There is no such thing as a free lunch. However, this loan or subsidy is occuring now where before it wasn't to the detriment of the African economy. Africa is now one the fastest growing regions in the world.

    I see Africans prefer the chinese than their previous colonial masters despite the difficulties in dealing with the chinese. If not the chinese, then who? The chinese arent stopping the Africans from dealing with the Europeans. They compete for Africas business.

    You don't need to work at the world bank to know that Chinas participation in African has been unbelievably beneficial. Its really surpassed alot of people expectations.
    You are the second disaporan Chinese I have encountered today spouting the same line. There is a narrowness of perception and a faith in the good intentions of Mother China that is almost scary. I'll take my cues from people who live & work in Africa. Their view differs radically from yours.

    On the good side, China is indeed investing money in places where it is sometimes needed and is building some useful infrastructure....though its quality & longevity is yet to be tested. The other side of that coin is that the Chinese are already beginning to wear out their welcome. In Ethiopia that has taken less than a decade. Some professionals resent that Chinese companies prefer to keep higher end work 'in house', mostly hiring locals for the shitty jobs. Some of the lower end workers are unhappy about the attitudes of their supervisors, who expect African workers to behave the same way as Chinese workers for less pay. Yet others see Chinese forming closed communities & engaging with locals as little as possible. Some feel that the racial attitudes of the Chinese they encounter are similar that of Europeans generations ago. On one flight I talked with a Japanese water engineer who is always quick to make it clear to Africans he meets that he is Japanese, not Chinese. Makes his life a lot easier. Process the implications of that for a moment.

    Now, that is a nation where China is not propping up a brutal dictator (Ethiopia's dictatorship is fairly civilized) or stitching up dodgy deals for precious resources AFAIK. Resentment is more widespread than you think. At some point China is going to start pushing for more of a return on its investment that the locals are prepared to give. Your confidence that China is so much more popular than the US or Europe is based on China having been active in the region for a very short space of time. The people I'm talking to who have seen this up close are tipping that China is buying many fewer friends than it thinks it is and for a much shorter time. Africans have generations more experience at dealing with cashed up foreigners with a superior attitude & stuff all experience in Africa.

    Originally posted by winton View Post
    Well, theres a dispute. Theres merit on both sides. Its got to be dealt with and judging by Chinas dealings with its other neighbour china has been very good at peacefully resolving these border or territorial issues.

    You have to look more indepth at the other side.
    Vietnam wouldn't agree. India neither. I doubt that Japan, The Philippines or other nations in the Sth China sea facing potential Chinese territorial claims would either.
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    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  • #2
    Originally posted by winton View Post
    Agree with your first assertion. I don't think the Chinese are forcing the US to reduce their presence but just to show respect when in chinas near abroad. I think the chinese are happy for all ships, continue about the SEA with freedom of navigation
    No, it was international waters- the US presence of lack of it does not depend on China.

    Its only on a collision course if you seek to go where you are unwelcome or where someone was already there.
    So China is on a collision course with the US and not vice verse, got it.

    [quoteGetting close is a threatening act.[/quote]

    Your standard

    China did not go towards the US.
    surfacing sub inside a carrier group, mid air collision with a P3 (under every relevant standard the fighter messed up) and holding the plane and crew hostage, harrassign a US survey ship... Under your standard its China who is at fault.


    the US cowpen went towards china. That was its intent. Chinas intent was to prevent the cowpen from harrassing its fleet.

    China means business in the sense that when you showup on chinas backyard and don't respect china you get a china that is not afraid to confront the US. You don't go over to someones backyard and claim harrasment. you go over to harrass.
    The US was sailing those seas long before the communist Chinese. But lets talk about Chinese actions in smuggling arms into the US, Chinese designs on the Panama canal or the new Nicaraguan canal, Chinese menacing US sats, stealing US intellectual property, hacking US computers......

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    • #3
      Originally posted by zraver View Post
      Chinese designs on the Panama canal or the new Nicaraguan canal,
      You lost me here.

      Chinese menacing US sats, stealing US intellectual property, hacking US computers......
      Just because there is less interesting stuff to be stolen from China it doesn't mean your guys don't do it.
      Heck, they do it in Europe while the focus is in the Pacific.
      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Doktor View Post
        You lost me here.
        Good, I didn't want you following me anyway... you're worse than the damn NSA. Seriosuly, use your google fu.

        Just because there is less interesting stuff to be stolen from China it doesn't mean your guys don't do it.
        Heck, they do it in Europe while the focus is in the Pacific.
        Just pointing out that the game is played by both sides, China is not an innocent victim but an aggressive expansionist power.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by zraver View Post
          Good, I didn't want you following me anyway... you're worse than the damn NSA. Seriosuly, use your google fu.
          I meant what about their plans on Nicaragua?

          Was Suez canal building or Panama one a hostile action?
          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Doktor View Post
            I meant what about their plans on Nicaragua?
            Chinese waterway in Nicaragua that'll be longer than Panama Canal | Mail Online




            Was Suez canal building or Panama one a hostile action?
            Yes, they were military moves. Especially the Panama Canal, it effectively doubled the effective size of the US letting us cover two oceans with a battle fleet concentrated in the Atlantic. Gave our main rivals at the time the Japanese and British no end of worries.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by zraver View Post
              Chinese waterway in Nicaragua that'll be longer than Panama Canal | Mail Online


              Yes, they were military moves. Especially the Panama Canal, it effectively doubled the effective size of the US letting us cover two oceans with a battle fleet concentrated in the Atlantic. Gave our main rivals at the time the Japanese and British no end of worries.
              Yep, if not a perspective 3-4 days (pending sea state) extra sailing time the long way around.
              Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                Cheetos? That's the admission price? WAB standards have fallen. I mean when you give up a $300 bottle of scotch for a $2 bag of cheetos ...
                Remember Tops is one of Tankies aliens. The rest of us require scotch. Or a crate of Worcestershire sauce......
                In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                Leibniz

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
                  and that it has reciprocity - eg not the chinese solution which is to sell them $5 garden chairs, 50c plates and build roads and infrastructure that are collapsing within 3 years of being built
                  You think the chinese solution is just low quality crap? what about phones, planes and ships. These low cost items are what the market ordered and are willing to pay for, just like Walmart.

                  There is also infrastructure built by the chinese that benefits the whole country.

                  You are just parrying the jealous narrative of the west.

                  perhaps you ought to read what the economist has to say to get a sense of balance.

                  Chinese trade with Africa keeps growing; fears of neocolonialism are overdone

                  Africa and China: More than minerals | The Economist


                  Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
                  You seem to be completely unaware of the fact that there is a rising angst and an expression in some African countries which roughly translates to "have we sold our souls?"
                  Rising angst is no different to rising agnst in the US about the chinese taking over their corporations. There are always going to be some people who seem to get jealous of not benefiting.

                  Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
                  and I've never worked for the World Bank - I have however directly contracted to some of those African states as a consultant - again actual experience trumps internet searches on any day of the week
                  What I was saying is that you needed to have worked at the world bank if you wanted to qualify as an expert on Africas economic situation. There are people who do business in Africa. Some from the west have their own view, those from the East have a different view.

                  Read what the brookings inst have to say

                  China’s Increasing Interest in Africa: Benign but Hardly Altruistic
                  http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-fr...ina-africa-sun

                  Here is another quote from the huffington post article

                  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel...b_3624204.html

                  "Despite all the concerns voiced by certain constituencies within Nigeria, most Nigerians recognize that China's growing presence is likely more beneficial than harmful. Western powers that claim a desire to help Nigeria develop are often perceived as insincere, with their own aid being viewed as an infringement on Nigeria's sovereignty, since it often comes with strings attached. In this respect, China is seen as non-hypocritical and more respectful of the African peoples' aspirations to manage their own affairs without fear of meddling by a foreign power."

                  Another source
                  http://www.howwemadeitinafrica.com/c...advisor/33013/

                  “If you look at the effect of Chinese foreign direct investment in Africa over the last 20 years, even the most sceptical of critics will agree, the effect on the ground has been quite profound. Look at countries like Kenya, Angola, Ghana, Sudan and Nigeria. The infrastructure that Africa has lacked for many years is being built by the Chinese and that is a good thing.”


                  These interactions don't happen in a bubble. If the US et al can offer a better deal, Africa is "free" to take it. When it was under colonial rule, it was neither free to take what was best, nor benefit from the wealth of its resources.

                  When you look at African sources, you will see that they want the chinese there. Yes things can be better, but they welcome the chinese. You look at Western sources and you only see concerns for Africas neo colonialism by the chinese. Thats hypocrisy.
                  Last edited by winton; 21 Dec 13,, 03:53. Reason: additional sources

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by winton View Post
                    You think the chinese solution is just low quality crap? what about phones, planes and ships.

                    Not to mention infrastructure that benefits the whole country.

                    You are just parrying the jealous narrative of the west.

                    perhaps you ought to read what the economist has to say to get a sense of balance.

                    Africa and China: More than minerals | The Economist




                    Rising angst is no different to rising agnst in the US about the chinese taking over our corporations.
                    Oh for goodness sake, how about reading what I said and not what you think I said- eg the infrastructure that china has built in central africa is so poor that its degrading after 2-3 years on some instances - not exactly value for money. Roads are collapsing, bridges are sub standard, buildings not in code etc....

                    Even you with your apologist zeal can't be that inept at establishing the thrust and intent of what has been said

                    as for jealous narrative? jealous of what?

                    gimme a break - and in case you haven't worked it out and are just looking at the flag on my tag - I have a chinese heritage.

                    you persistently drive in and inject loaded and innacurate commentary and then have the audacity to act aggrieved?

                    and perhaps you should read beyond the economist and look at what the african states themselves are saying about whether they have a positive or a negative - The SADC doesn't think so - and they're the ones that count - not some academic tome with people scribing and who have minimal if any direct involvement.

                    sorry possum, but grow some skin - if you don't like the commentary because people don't subscribe to your passion on the "china is great" song then get on your bike and find another shoulder to cry on as you won't get it here.

                    when you learn to participate without fluffing the posts with the company line - well then perhaps you might get taken a little more seriously.
                    Last edited by gf0012-aust; 21 Dec 13,, 03:34.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by winton View Post
                      You think the chinese solution is just low quality crap? what about phones, planes and ships.

                      Not to mention infrastructure that benefits the whole country.

                      You are just parrying the jealous narrative of the west.

                      perhaps you ought to read what the economist has to say to get a sense of balance.
                      Ok, I have to laugh.
                      I had to do direct business with PRC Chinese microchip wholesale distributors for 7 years. 90% of them were dealing in counterfeits.
                      Most of them had no clue of what they were dealing in. ("Please give the microchips another try!")

                      Many of them would relocate to other countries and try to disguise their Chinese origins, knowing full well that the rest of the world was correctly mistrustful of Chinese businesses.

                      All of them were engaged in Customs fraud and were bewildered when I refused to accept misrepresented or undervalued pro forma invoices.

                      Jealous narrative? No, more like a thorough disgust at a rampant culture of fraud, theft and careless disregard for the lives they were putting in danger with their fake shit.

                      Thank god I'm out of that business.
                      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by winton View Post
                        You think the chinese solution is just low quality crap? what about phones, planes and ships. These low cost items are what the market ordered and are willing to pay for, just like Walmart.
                        and now I'm going to call you out.

                        Name what planes and ships in china are built to a high quality - ie those platforms which are solely chinese and don't have western quality controllers at the end of the lines to make sure that they comply with western QA/QC acceptance standards?

                        take your time ..... don't make it up as I've seen the qc on their own planes as compared to Boeing piecemeal products, and I've seen their maritime platforms which don't have German or Italian quality controllers in place - and I've seen the quality of their fabrication where we found silicon sealer emulating a bead weld and painted the same colour as the metal - and used for export "QC" HT towers

                        I'm happy to name quality production out of companies in china - but I doubt you can, and certainly not without you slipping into "China Great" and the "West Bad" mode

                        edit: for those unaware - HT = High Tension Towers - ie Towers that are designed to carry from 22Kv to 600Kv power lines. If the Towers aren't engineered properly then they are at risk - esp when not structurally sound. No point building powerlines if they fall down at the next big wind, or rust at the base and fall down, or are certified as galvanised, but have been spray painted to look like galv, or are supposted to have bead welds but are spot welded with silicon applied to make them look like seam welds - and then painted to continue the deception. etc etc etc.....
                        Last edited by gf0012-aust; 21 Dec 13,, 04:01.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                          You are the second disaporan Chinese I have encountered today spouting the same line. There is a narrowness of perception and a faith in the good intentions of Mother China that is almost scary. I'll take my cues from people who live & work in Africa. Their view differs radically from yours.
                          You need to take your cues from the Africans and the outcome. They decide if they want the chinese there or not. If you're losing out to china in africa, your views will be biased. obviously and undestandably. Its the western view. Ask some chinese who have worked in Africa what they think.


                          Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                          Vietnam wouldn't agree. India neither. I doubt that Japan, The Philippines or other nations in the Sth China sea facing potential Chinese territorial claims would either.
                          Most of chnas neighbour would. Its resolved almost all of them except for the ones you mentioned and when you look at the ratio, its a minority of nations.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
                            Name what planes and ships in china are built to a high quality - ie those platforms which are solely chinese and don't have western quality controllers at the end of the lines to make sure that they comply with western QA/QC acceptance standards?
                            You're drilling down to that level of origin is not relevant. What is relevant is the fact that china can do that and sell it to the Africans.

                            Lets also not forget that Huawei is making a killing in Africa supplying them with NSA free gear, powering their mobile phone system.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by winton View Post
                              Most of chnas neighbour would. Its resolved almost all of them except for the ones you mentioned and when you look at the ratio, its a minority of nations.
                              what neighbours? North Korea?

                              everyone else in dispute over the senkayus, paracels, spratleys - all are in dispute - that's more than 8 countries.

                              you really need to improve on your geopolitical awareness as its sorely deficient.
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