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The Benefits of Sino-African Economic Ties

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  • #46
    Originally posted by cdude View Post
    That is not true. Norway handles her oil income just fine. I am not saying every African country can do as well as the Nordics. But with the infrastructure China helps them build, it's at least an improvement over the old way of Swiss banks taking every thing.
    Norway was a homogeneous country before oil. Most African states still have plank holders still alive and resource or agricultural export is all they have ever had combined with a deficit of an established intelligentsia.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by zraver View Post
      Norway was a homogeneous country before oil. Most African states still have plank holders still alive and resource or agricultural export is all they have ever had combined with a deficit of an established intelligentsia.
      Well, maybe building roads/ports/cellular stations is not a bad start?

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      • #48
        Originally posted by cdude View Post
        Well, maybe building roads/ports/cellular stations is not a bad start?
        Getting WAY off topic here.

        I tried to stay out of this but cdude and to some extend Dambisa Moyo missed the point about development of the third country and more importantly the so-called Chinese model: The best way to utilize limited resources in a "perfect economy" is allowing small private enterprise/mom&pop shops to thrive, the job of the government is to allow a safe framework for people to grow. This is the VERY model the Chinese government took during the first period of the rural reform from 1979 to 1984 in a nutshell.

        Buying more cell stations, building ports /road without only would incur bad debt if there is NO people using them to generate growth. The Chinese government during the period of 1982 to 1989 was extremely careful not to overspend on infrastructure or incur debt. Under the guidance from Justin Lin's "rural first, urban second" policy. The current phase of the heavy infrastructural based investment did not kick in until 1992 after Deng's southern tour as a direct result of then PM Zhu's privatization drive which cut off 30 million from government pay roll. This is to set to ground work for the next round of growth. The "export driven growth" in many ways is not a complete picture of the Chinese economic story.

        Dambisa Moyo, when it comes to China model, there is no such thing.
        Last edited by xinhui; 22 Dec 13,, 00:52.
        “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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        • #49
          The Benefits of Sino-African Economic Ties

          This thread was created to address a topic originally begun in the thread

          http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/nav...tml#post944500
          To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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          • #50
            Originally posted by xinhui View Post
            Getting WAY off topic here.

            I tried to stay out of this but cdude and to some extend Dambisa Moyo missed the point about development of the third country and more importantly the so-called Chinese model: The best way to utilize limited resources in a "perfect economy" is allowing small private enterprise/mom&pop shops to thrive, the job of the government is to allow a safe framework for people to grow. This is the VERY model the Chinese government took during the first period of the rural reform from 1979 to 1984 in a nutshell.

            Buying more cell stations, building ports /road without only would incur bad debt if there is NO people using them to generate growth. The Chinese government during the period of 1982 to 1989 was extremely careful not to overspend on infrastructure or incur debt. Under the guidance from Justin Lin's "rural first, urban second" policy. The current phase of the heavy infrastructural based investment did not kick in until 1992 after Deng's southern tour as a direct result of then PM Zhu's privatization drive which cut off 30 million from government pay roll. This is to set to ground work for the next round of growth. The "export driven growth" in many ways is not a complete picture of the Chinese economic story.

            Dambisa Moyo, when it comes to China model, there is no such thing.
            I think Eric Li argued that there is no such thing as China model and when was the last time China asked anyone to follow "China model"?. I think JAD and zraver were arguing that African countries would be better off NOT trading with China coz China is taking them out for a ride. And the debts Africans accumulated by borrowing from China? You mean low interest rates and often forgiven altogether loans.

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            • #51
              This is the most successful thread I have ever started! Four pages in like two minutes I obviously have a knack for promoting discussion.
              sigpic

              Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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              • #52
                Originally posted by cdude View Post
                I think Eric Li argued that there is no such thing as China model and when was the last time China asked anyone to follow "China model"?. I think JAD and zraver were arguing that African countries would be better off NOT trading with China coz China is taking them out for a ride. And the debts Africans accumulated by borrowing from China? You mean low interest rates and often forgiven altogether loans.
                Move the misrepresentations & regurgitated propaganda to the new thread.

                http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/eas...ic-ties-4.html
                sigpic

                Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                  This is the most successful thread I have ever started! Four pages in like two minutes I obviously have a knack for promoting discussion.
                  Time-stamps disagree :red:

                  Edit: So, it was you who derailed the original thread, huh?
                  No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                  To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                  • #54
                    cdude, I do not claim that Africa would be better off not trading with China. I don't know, don't really care. All I said was that Norway was a homogeneous and developed nation before it discovered oil. So please refrain from accusing me.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by cdude View Post
                      I think Eric Li argued that there is no such thing as China model and when was the last time China asked anyone to follow "China model"?. I think JAD and zraver were arguing that African countries would be better off NOT trading with China coz China is taking them out for a ride. And the debts Africans accumulated by borrowing from China? You mean low interest rates and often forgiven altogether loans.
                      You don't or can't read. I never argued that Africa would be better off without China trade. I said trade of the type China is carrying on, whether by China or any other country poses special economic challenges. This is the 2nd time you're put a wrong interpretation on what I said. Ask when in doubt and please, be more careful in the future.
                      To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                        Time-stamps disagree :red:

                        Edit: So, it was you who derailed the original thread, huh?
                        Time stamps LIE. You were here Doc, you saw it spring from nothing to 4 pages in a few moments. Damn I'm good!
                        sigpic

                        Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by cdude View Post
                          I think JAD and zraver were arguing that African countries would be better off NOT trading with China coz China is taking them out for a ride.
                          No, they were arguing that China don't know what it's like trading with Africa, ie, your engineers have not been cooked for dinner yet.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                            No, they were arguing that China don't know what it's like trading with Africa, ie, your engineers have not been cooked for dinner yet.
                            Australian aboriginies who were cannibals (there were one or two tribes) apparently preferred Chinese. Said the meat was 'sweeter'. I suspect this is a subject Pari can provide expert commentary on.
                            sigpic

                            Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                            • #59
                              back to topic already.
                              “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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                              • #60
                                No, Chinese territorial disputes with Russia have been resolved, and the land border disputes that sparked off the Sino-Vietnamese wars are no longer extant. Same with Pakistan and Tajikistan.

                                I think nationalism as a factor in Chinese territorial disputes is overrated; China's various territorial disputes are more important in the larger strategic context. India hosts the Tibetan government-in-exile and on occasion elements in India press for an independent Tibet, Japan is the other unsinkable aircraft carrier and a regional power in its own right, the South China Sea is a useful forward frontier to block potential containment with ASEAN.

                                If you notice, the Chinese ceded territory, to my memory, in the Russian and Tajik disputes, splitting islands in the Russian case, and ceding a mountain range in the Tajik case. The Chinese are perfectly willing to cede territories or claims in a territorial dispute provided that the territorial dispute loses its strategic necessity.

                                ===

                                Added:

                                In the modern era territories don't really matter all that much; the value of territories comes in three forms, resources, infrastructure, and people. If you seize territories by force or guile, you gain the resources, destroy the infrastructure, and alienate the people. Out of the three, you lose two gains for one. By opting for investment and trade, however, you can derive benefit from both resources, infrastructure, and population.

                                There was an interesting article by an ex-Soviet spy who was ruined by the Chinese, and he made a pretty cogent point about how China tends to stir up territorial disputes over nothing for the mere point of screwing with the other country, and offering to make the problem go away for concessions that would not have been offered in the first place. It's like OoE's conclusion over the Chinese border intrusions with India; the point was that after the meeting scheduled for the next month, both sides could save and gain face by negotiating to make the border intrusions go away.
                                Last edited by Inst; 29 Dec 13,, 18:42.

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