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The Benefits of Sino-African Economic Ties

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  • #16
    Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
    China has targeted countries where there has been a history of bad governance - countries where they have been refused money by Europe and the US unless they abide by good governance issues - that means that the money has to stay traceable and accountable and not end up in the private pockets of local politicians and/or senior military. So if China goes to those countries and says, can we take your copper - not give you market rates but also give you money that you do not have accountability for - then they just continue to foster the robber baron mentality
    China targets all countries. It doesn't make a distinction. It only see opportunity. The US is targeted and its the 2nd largest trading country for China. It goes in and works with the system in place. It doesn't demand social or political change, unlike the US who selectively demand it and waives those demands for countries it sees as strategically important.

    Also, ask yourself where the term robber baron comes from. China did not invent this. and Africa is free to determine its own path as it is soverign.

    Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
    The EU and the US however expect that monies are accountable and that money destined for the benefit of the people stays traceable and is used for the common good at all times.
    Selectively. There lots of oil corruption being facilitated by western firms in nigeria. Look it up. take you time!

    Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
    Note that all the countries in Africa that trade with the EU and the US are also members of the WTO - ie undertaking the proper governance issues required to be accepted. Membership of the WTO was something that China was desperate to get for close to 10 years until the US endorsed her in the vein hope that she would then inject some financial transparency into her international money dealings.
    The US let china into the WTO because it was in its interest to let it in. It has benefited immensely. You really have a altruistic view of america.

    Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
    as for your "most african leaders and intellectuals" endorsing your views, what absolute rot.
    I've provide plenty of sources in my previous post. please read them.
    Last edited by winton; 21 Dec 13,, 04:19.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
      what neighbours?
      Russia, Pakistan, tajikistan, vietnam border, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan just to name a few

      Asia Times Online :: China News, China Business News, Taiwan and Hong Kong News and Business.

      Of its 23 territorial disputes active since 1949, China offered "substantial compromises" in 17, usually agreeing "to accept less than half of the territory being disputed

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      • #18
        Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
        ROFLMAO - you think that a cheap barb about a company managed by PLA Generals is going to stop me from believing that you've got no idea and are little but a shill and an apologist.
        what concerns me most is your argument and how it stand up to scrutiny, rather than you cheap shots. I've supplied you with articles of views that run counter to yours. I hope you have read them.

        Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
        In all the time you've been here you've been comprehensively challenged by people who do actually have a clue and shown to be spectacularly indolent with the truth
        Thats your evaluation and I'm sure there are others, but I don't see it that way. I'm providing the other viewpoint. I've even got a few likes.

        Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
        I'm happy to name quality production out of companies in china - but I doubt you can, and certainly not without you slipping into "China Great" and the "West Bad" mode
        If you can name them, then why are you pushing the narrative that china can only produce crap. why play this game?
        Last edited by winton; 21 Dec 13,, 04:28.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by winton View Post
          You need to take your cues from the Africans and the outcome. They decide if they want the chinese there or not. If you're losing out to china in africa, your views will be biased. obviously and undestandably. Its the western view. Ask some chinese who have worked in Africa what they think.
          I am taking my cues from Africans. I just spent 3 weeks asking them their opinions. Not the first time I've gone to the source, won't be the last. As for bias, how exactly am I 'losing out'. Have you really swallowed the party line about 'western attitudes' so completely, or are you just mirroring your own slavish dedication to a 'Chinese attitude' and applying it to people you disagree with? As for asking Chinese, I thought I was supposed to be asking Africans. I'll back my sources against yours and my 'bias' in this situation is dramatically less than yours.


          Most of chnas neighbour would. Its resolved almost all of them except for the ones you mentioned and when you look at the ratio, its a minority of nations.
          So you've gone from 'China is very good at resolving these disputes' to arguing about the ration of nations on its borders that it has disputes with. That was quick. Well, if we are playing 'ratio' games, I wonder how many nations who share a maritime border with China have been beneficiaries of this great ability to reach resolution? the DPRK? ROK? Japan? Taiwan? Philippines? Brunei? Vietnam? Malaysia?

          Originally posted by winton View Post
          Russia, Pakistan, tajikistan, vietnam border, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan just to name a few
          I doubt anyone who wasn't being paid or had been brainwashed could keep a straight face while claiming that the process that brought the resolution of the Vietnamese land border to a conclusion was anything to be proud of.


          Sino-Vietnamese conflicts 1979


          If you aren't a member of the Clone Army you should join. You've got the training nailed.
          Last edited by Bigfella; 21 Dec 13,, 05:05.
          sigpic

          Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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          • #20
            Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
            Cheap shots? I apparently haven't made my contempt clear enough then.
            I think you said it best when you said "Play the ball, not the player"

            Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
            My responses are because you present as a pseudo intellectual but often get the fundamentals completely wrong. Excuse me if I didn't make it clear when rebutting with personal experience. As I said, personal experience beats a frantic google search on any given day.
            I think we just disagree. There are other people, specifically, Africans that don't share your view. You should read it and not hide behind your excuse of personal experience coz your experience is one in a Billion of stories that come out of Africa. You look at tophatters experience in china. Yes, he didn't have a good experience and it has tainted his view of china, but there are plenty of success stories of western involvement in china.

            Now I'm not saying there won't be angst in Africa. It doesn't really matter where the chinese go, there will always be angst. There is concern in Australia about chinese buying up the farms. Angst in america, europe, canada. You name it. Whenever you go in an make a successful dollar, you are always going to get it.

            Also, the roads and bridges you talk about not being built to code, is that european code? whose code? Chinas? You expect these things to be built to a higher standard? There are bridges that collapse in the US. Who is in charge of maintenance? These things don't maintain themselves. These things aren't built to last forever.
            Last edited by winton; 21 Dec 13,, 05:11. Reason: spelling

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            • #21
              Originally posted by YellowFever View Post
              That exchange between gf and winty was like watching an adult spank a little child very hard.....
              I'll argue my point. I'll play the ball. I'm not going to engage in cheap shots.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                China shares ocean borders with- Vietnam, North Korea, South Korea, Japan, Philippines, Malaysia and the Republic of China.... she has active border disputes with all of them except North Korea.
                Nope, border disputes there too, just don't get as much press.
                sigpic

                Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by winton View Post
                  I'll argue my point. I'll play the ball. I'm not going to engage in cheap shots.
                  no cheap shot there, sport.

                  it was an adult disciplining a child that thought he knew it all

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by winton View Post
                    I'll argue my point. I'll play the ball. I'm not going to engage in cheap shots.

                    You don't argue your point. You make wild unsupported claims, refuse to engage in honest discussion and jump in to threads humming China ubber alles... Your shtick is wearing thin on people with the power to do something about it, and I am one of the ones arguing for you being given a chance to maturate and become an actual wabbit. For once pull the stick out of your ass and start actually engaging with us with a fact and relaity based approach instead of this stupid China hell or high water act you've been on. You're not going to convert us into Han worshipers anymore than we are going to turn you into a Shinto Priest from Japan. But we can talk to each other if you're willing to actually talk back to us instead of at us.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by YellowFever View Post
                      no cheap shot there, sport.
                      I disagree. You can tell by the tone of his language that he was getting rather frustrated. And by his own admission, contemptable .

                      Play the ball yellowfever.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by zraver View Post
                        You don't argue your point. You make wild unsupported claims, refuse to engage in honest discussion and jump in to threads humming China ubber alles... Your shtick is wearing thin on people with the power to do something about it, and I am one of the ones arguing for you being given a chance to maturate and become an actual wabbit. For once pull the stick out of your ass and start actually engaging with us with a fact and relaity based approach instead of this stupid China hell or high water act you've been on. You're not going to convert us into Han worshipers anymore than we are going to turn you into a Shinto Priest from Japan. But we can talk to each other if you're willing to actually talk back to us instead of at us.
                        I utterly disagree with what you have written. I've supplied support articles. how can you claim unsupported claims.

                        How have I refused to engage in honest discussion? I'm engaging. I'm giving you my honest opinion, supported of course by other peoples viewpoints.

                        your comments on han worshipper and shinto priest is not helpful.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by winton View Post
                          I disagree.
                          of course you do.

                          you've been in denial since you first got here.

                          why change now? :)

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
                            and perhaps you should read beyond the economist and look at what the african states themselves are saying about whether they have a positive or a negative - The SADC doesn't think so - and they're the ones that count - not some academic tome with people scribing and who have minimal if any direct involvement.
                            Why would I need to read beyond the economist? Its very pro western.

                            Why don't you look at what the African states are doing, not what they are saying. They are agreeing to more trade, more loans, more interaction with the chinese, not less.

                            Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
                            sorry possum, but grow some skin - if you don't like the commentary because people don't subscribe to your passion on the "china is great" song then get on your bike and find another shoulder to cry on as you won't get it here.
                            I am not oppose to your commentary nor do I dislike it. I am engaging it without being personal.

                            Also, I don't subscribe to the China is great song. I subscribe to china is rising and lets be fair and balanced with our discussion of China. You have a pro western bias that does not surprise me and that is understandable, but I think you should look beyond that and see the other sides POV.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by zraver View Post
                              You can utterly disagree if you want. But I was nice and let you know that I've gone to bat for you. if you blow it, its on you. Stop talking at people and start talking to them. If they say they have expertise here- they do.
                              Well, I appreciate that youve gone to bat for me. You do have a funny way of expressing it though.

                              I don't know what you mean with talking at people. You will notice I don't respond to peoples insults with insults. I try to be civil and not make it personal.

                              When people say they are experts, it doesn't mean I cant respectfully disagree with them. Are these experts so expert at geopolitical issues that they are never wrong. Are the people working at state never wrong? are the people working at the chinese foreign ministry ever wrong. Do they not have differences?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by winton View Post
                                Why would I need to read beyond the economist? Its very pro western.
                                why would I look at publications that don't reflect conversations on the ground - I'm going to take actual experience and involvement with some of these countries as a better litmus test than any publication. There's no seduction by ideology when you get it first hand

                                Originally posted by winton View Post
                                Why don't you look at what the African states are doing, not what they are saying. They are agreeing to more trade, more loans, more interaction with the chinese, not less.
                                and again, you blithely ignore the reality on the ground that dealing with countries that have political systems already tarnished by decades of corruption is not exactly a litmus test of credibility - of course they're going to take money when there's no governance attached to how its used - I'm betting that the odds are pretty high across the spectrum of china client traders in cent africa that the general populace have realised stuff all benefit in comparison to the elites

                                Originally posted by winton View Post
                                Also, I don't subscribe to the China is great song. I subscribe to china is rising and lets be fair and balanced with our discussion of China. You have a pro western bias that does not surprise me and that is understandable, but I think you should look beyond that and see the other sides POV.
                                why would I have a pro western bias? I'm half oriental - you've obviously missed my comments on chinas remarkable growth elsewhere - I've been to Shenzen in '85 when the tallest building in the city was 4 stories in height - and now they have literally thousands of skyscrapers. If I'm supposed to be egalitarian with no reason are you expecting me to hook into the scottish (my other heritage) to "stay fair"? Well, when the scottish govt behaves like the chinese govt I will. Guaranteed.

                                you're not the first asian on here who has made assumptions about me.

                                Here's a free tip for you.

                                If people on here state their expertise its pretty damn easy to work out whether they're the real thing or just blowing smoke up everyones rectum - they get caught out really quickly when they're pretenders. Nobody tolerates a fake.
                                Instead of spouting what is at times absolute rubbish you would be better served suspending the initial excitement in the need to auto-respond and just start paying more attention. There's a wealth of free expertise on here. You don't get there unless you've done it.

                                As a first lesson I'd suggest that you stop preaching to others how military ops work as you clearly have no idea - learn to cast your responses as an opinion rather than trying to sleeve them in as fact -the glaring example is your foray in to telling others how ASW works.

                                As the 2nd lesson - quoting a swag of central asian or asia minor countries (and most landlocked) as examples of chinas ability to play nice in border resolution immediately presents as disingenuine when all the current disputes with respect to maritime borders outnumbers your prev example by some margin. Citing Vietnam in your original group is laughable - there might be less aggravation over land borders, but maritime? Hardly. To top it off, Chinas self stated "string of pearls" strategem involves all those countries in the SCS, ECS and PACRIM that are in dispute - and all of them have concerns about chinas growing arrogance in asserting her will now that she has a military that is about to project beyond the protection of land based air and long range strike range rings

                                Google experts are not in the same league.

                                When you demonstrate to me that you actually understand the long view and how china sees those interconnects, then perhaps we'll make progress - at the moment you're not convincing me at all about the broader picture. If your view is that the discussion needs to be fair and balanced then you better start recognising that a strong cohort of countries in the PACRIM, SCS and ECS don't see china as benevolent and a benign rising power at all.
                                Last edited by gf0012-aust; 21 Dec 13,, 10:06.
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