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A ship that gave all it could......

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  • #31
    Originally posted by blidgepump View Post
    Exactly correct in that war graves are best not disturbed.
    Respect and honors should be rendered in all war graves regardless of the country.
    When individuals begin selecting what customs to observe, their own ethics start the slippery slide down the slope.
    Perhaps..............

    ................personally, I would prefer it to be under laws and treaties, for three main reasons.

    First of all, under law, if they steal you can bust them. Can't do too much if it is just an understanding.

    Secondly, under law or treaty, it may codify it enough so a politician doesn't declare it a grave just because they don't want someone finding out what really went wrong, doesn't want to spend the money or time to properly protect it.

    Ie, while it wasn't a warship, remember that ferry that went down a number of years back in European waters? The politicians soon declaring it a grave, declaring it off limits? The ability to do that seems that an easy way to me for politicians to avoid responsibility.

    Finally, if it is codified, then we might prevent having so many places called graves so no one can do anything on the planet. After all, heaven help you if on the land you bought with hard earned money Indian burial grounds are found.

    Is it the same thing? Well, suppose you want to drill for oil in the Gulf of Mexico in the EEZ....and you find the wreck of the French submarine Surcouf. The country's land, your paid for lease, your money........and there it is. Do you just say, "Oh, well, let our people freeze."? (Surcouf is supposedly farther south, but for the purpose of argument, let's just say....)

    .............................................do you just say, leave K-129 undisturbed, we don't need that information? I know we did one heck of a burial for those we brought up, but quite a few people saw the situation like those are seeing it here.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by surfgun View Post
      Now the word is out that Indonesian salvagers are stripping the wreck of HMAS Perth and possibly the war grave of USS Houston. HMAS Perth: WWII warship grave stripped by salvagers - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
      The Perth is not a designated war grave so she doesn't get any protection. All countries do the same.

      Even the US has disturbed/destroyed sunken warships. Though we do try to handle any remains found with dignity and return them to their respective country.
      Last edited by Gun Grape; 18 Dec 13,, 02:33.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Josh View Post
        Ok, found something for it, a pdf indicating SBDs (not helldivers) could carry 1600lbs from land bases. One assumes with plenty of runway. There's a condition listed as '1600#' on the second page of the scanned document.

        http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/sbd-5.pdf

        But in any case I'd agree Musashi likely was only exposed to 500# and 1000# regardless. Sorry for the thread jack. :)
        Read the text in your link. It states that the SBD carried a 1000lb bomb on the swingout rack. The rack was rated for 1600lbs

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        • #34
          Let me throw in two ships that "gave their all"

          USS Texas From her shakedown cruise, where she went to Veracruze to provide fire support for troops ashore in 1914 to her final fire mission off Okinawa in 1945,
          Service with the British Grand Fleet in WW1, and took part in many amphibious assaults in both the Atlantic and Pacific theater in WW2.

          She also paved the way as the first battleship museum. Other notables, First battleship to mount AA guns, First Battleship to launch a plane from a catapult, First Navy ship to have a permanent detachment of Marines,

          You could not ask a ship to do more.

          The other ship would of course be the USS Enterprise (CV-6) Do I need to go over her exploits as the most decorated US Navy ship in WW2?
          Last edited by Gun Grape; 19 Dec 13,, 02:05.

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          • #35
            You don't need to, but I'd enjoy it. :pop:

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            • #36
              A little known one..USS Edsall DD-219 A ship that defied the IJN battline to the very end.

              http://www.usshouston.org/images/edsall.pdf
              Last edited by Dreadnought; 18 Dec 13,, 19:35.
              Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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              • #37
                Another thought came to mind with regard to a ship "giving its all." One can take that term any number of ways, but short of going down with guns blazing, one could make the case that USS New Jersey (BB 62) paid a certain kind of price on her first post-modernization deployment back in '83-'84. I did two nine month deployments in Constellation attendant to the Iran Hostage Crisis and that couldn't suck enough, but New Jersey's first time up to bat was something like 11 months in duration and included if I'm not mistaken a circumnavigation of the globe or nearly so. I served as an instructor with two guys at SWOSCOLCOMDET Coronado who were on that commissioning crew and deployment, and with another, this idiot, who was the weapons officer in USS Brooke (FFG 1) when I was CHENG and XO, who was also along for that ride. All were gunnery officers. One was either a turret officer or assistant turret officer on one of the 16" turrets, and the other two were 5'/38 guys. I also knew the CHENG, as he had been MPA in Constellation. Anyway, they all said they pretty much were all doing the thousand yard stare by the end of that one.

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                • #38
                  Here is one many have probably never heard of and three of the crew received the MOH.

                  USS Winslow
                  Battle of Cárdenas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by desertswo View Post
                    Another thought came to mind with regard to a ship "giving its all." One can take that term any number of ways, but short of going down with guns blazing, one could make the case that USS New Jersey (BB 62) paid a certain kind of price on her first post-modernization deployment back in '83-'84. I did two nine month deployments in Constellation attendant to the Iran Hostage Crisis and that couldn't suck enough, but New Jersey's first time up to bat was something like 11 months in duration and included if I'm not mistaken a circumnavigation of the globe or nearly so. I served as an instructor with two guys at SWOSCOLCOMDET Coronado who were on that commissioning crew and deployment, and with another, this idiot, who was the weapons officer in USS Brooke (FFG 1) when I was CHENG and XO, who was also along for that ride. All were gunnery officers. One was either a turret officer or assistant turret officer on one of the 16" turrets, and the other two were 5'/38 guys. I also knew the CHENG, as he had been MPA in Constellation. Anyway, they all said they pretty much were all doing the thousand yard stare by the end of that one.
                    Agreed Sir, Some called that tour an "Odyssey".
                    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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                    • #40
                      There can be no finer example of a ship that gave all it could than the HMS Warspite.

                      From the WW1 battle of Jutland where she took 150 hits and kept fighting to her outstanding work in WW2. In the end she even gave the scrappers a hard time.

                      Read the Wiki

                      HMS Warspite (03) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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                      • #41
                        This thread was generated from an old comparison of "you are a heavy cruiser, standard armament. He's a light cruiser, only he's armed with Harpoon." And at the time, the "answer" was to get in quick and take out his sensors before he launches.

                        But these days, it perhaps doesn't seem that hopeless of a situation. Those days, not knowing about the missile aside from what Madison Avenue said, it did seem a bad one.

                        In a plain slug match, one will probably lose. But if one uses all of their capabilities, even those outside the box, the environment to the max, perhaps not.

                        Anyhow.......................

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