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Thread: Japan, U.S. at Odds Over China's Air Zone

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    So China has unilaterally decided to make a previously safe piece of airspace 'unsafe' for any aircraft crossing it unless they do as China says. Thanks for confirming that.
    The safe option would be to submit data as requested by the chinese. What the Japanese govt is doing is forcing their carriers to operate unsafely which even the US has advised against.

    This would suggest that the US don't see this ADIZ as that big a deal and are only keeping up appearances for their Japanese ally.

  2. #62
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    Funny, US, SK, and Japanese military aircrafts are flaunting their presence in the ADIZ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Funny, US, SK, and Japanese military aircrafts are flaunting their presence in the ADIZ.
    That was to be expected given the level of competition and mistrust between china and america et al. They were flying through the region without informing the chinese before.

    Despite all this, the ADIZ is still there and slowly gaining legitimacy. The american added to this legitimacy by advising their commercial carriers to comply.

  4. #64
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    They're also flying B-52s through it daring the China AF to intercept.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    The safe option would be to submit data as requested by the chinese. What the Japanese govt is doing is forcing their carriers to operate unsafely which even the US has advised against.

    This would suggest that the US don't see this ADIZ as that big a deal and are only keeping up appearances for their Japanese ally.
    The safe option would have been for China not to unilaterally decide to start threatening aircraft transiting a particular area. The safe option would be for China to remove the threat. It didn't exist a few short weeks ago. There is no reason for it to exist now.


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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    They're also flying B-52s through it daring the China AF to intercept.
    That in itself is unremarkable. The chinese have been flying their own bombers through Japanese ADIZ and right over the islands even. The americans did that early on to reassure their jittery Japanese ally.

    The japanese have been run ragged intercepting the chinese.

    However the US, japan respond militarily, its a geopolitical win for the chinese.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    The safe option would have been for China not to unilaterally decide to start threatening aircraft transiting a particular area. The safe option would be for China to remove the threat. It didn't exist a few short weeks ago. There is no reason for it to exist now.
    And forgo the geopolitical win? Come on. Put yourself in their shoes. They are already enjoying the benefits of this ADIZ. Its a net gain for them

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    That in itself is unremarkable. The chinese have been flying their own bombers through Japanese ADIZ and right over the islands even.
    And they were intercepted and escorted.

    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    The americans did that early on to reassure their jittery Japanese ally.
    From here, they were incapable of doing squat.

    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    The japanese have been run ragged intercepting the chinese.
    Try again. The Japanese have better loiter time ... and they are intercepting the Chinese. The Chinese are intecepting no one. It's a friggin bluff.

    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    However the US, japan respond militarily, its a geopolitical win for the chinese.
    Says you. The military are the ones the Chinese needs to identify. They're the ones flaunting Chinese incapabilities.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    And they were intercepted and escorted.
    They left on their own terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    From here, they were incapable of doing squat.
    Like the japanese interceptors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Try again. The Japanese have better loiter time ... and they are intercepting the Chinese. The Chinese are intecepting no one. It's a friggin bluff.
    Thats contrary to news reports.
    China warplanes patrol new ADIZ | The Japan Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Says you. The military are the ones the Chinese needs to identify.
    says this article
    Why China considers its new air zone a success - The Globe and Mail

    The chinese will have an easier time Iding military with all those commercial flights providing data which is the bulk of the traffic.

  10. #70
    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    That was to be expected given the level of competition and mistrust between china and america et al. They were flying through the region without informing the chinese before.
    Your premise is all wrong. The US flies military planes through the area without informing the Chinese because it has always done so. Trust has nothing to do with it.


    Despite all this, the ADIZ is still there and slowly gaining legitimacy.
    That suggests it wasn't legitimate to start with.


    The american added to this legitimacy by advising their commercial carriers to comply.
    The advisory came from the FAA and CAA for the safety of commercial flights. The White House accepted it. That's not legitimizing the ADIZ, just recognizing the danger for airline passengers.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    Your premise is all wrong. The US flies military planes through the area without informing the Chinese because it has always done so. Trust has nothing to do with it.
    I agree with the previously not informing part, I stated that. Trust is just part of the mood.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    That suggests it wasn't legitimate to start with.
    declaring ADIZ never is to start of with. Did china initially recognize American/Japanese ADIZ. They have come to live with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    The advisory came from the FAA and CAA for the safety of commercial flights. The White House accepted it. That's not legitimizing the ADIZ, just recognizing the danger for airline passengers.
    Unfortunately, it does, which is why the Japanese are so against it. It leads to other nations supplying data like SK are doing.

    Lawfare › The Foreign Policy Essay: Oriana Skylar Mastro on “China

    This is an interesting article.

    the choice to fly “antiquated” B-52s without weapons is interpreted as recognition of China’s ADIZ and lack of U.S. resolve. As one independent military analyst wrote on a more reputable website, “thank you U.S. for confirming China’s ADIZ.” Under this backdrop, Beijing may hope the U.S. will pressure Japan to back down or, at the very least, that the ADIZ will create tension between the two allies as they debate and disagree on the best way to respond.

    The way I see it, china has everything to gain and nothing to lose with this ADIZ.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    They left on their own terms.
    It's friggin international airspace. You're allowed to fly through it.

    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    Like the japanese interceptors.
    They were intercepted and escorted. Neither side is allowed to shoot.

    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    Thats contrary to news reports.
    All talk.

    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    says this article
    Why China considers its new air zone a success - The Globe and Mail

    The chinese will have an easier time Iding military with all those commercial flights providing data which is the bulk of the traffic.
    Yeah, sure. Those two B-52s weren't even seen until Washington announced it.

  13. #73
    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    Newer article contradicts yours.

    China

    Japan’s planes have continued their normal patrol flights in the East China Sea without any observable reaction from China .

    Got anything up to date on actual intercepts?
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    Unfortunately, it does, which is why the Japanese are so against it. It leads to other nations supplying data like SK are doing.
    I disagree. Prudence for safety's sake does not legitimize. The US will never recognize the legitimacy of the ADIZ while it covers disputed territory.



    The way I see it, china has everything to gain and nothing to lose with this ADIZ.
    Good relations with its neighbors and other countries? Peace in an area where tensions have been low for years?



    Why doesn't China respect Japan's ADIZ?


    Why does China put more tracking requirements on aircraft in its ADIZ than other countries? It is still international airspace.
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    The US will never recognize the legitimacy of the ADIZ while it covers disputed territory.

    Why doesn't China respect Japan's ADIZ?
    You just answered your own question before asking.

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