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Thread: Japan, U.S. at Odds Over China's Air Zone

  1. #16
    Senior Contributor Stitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inst View Post
    I still don't understand why the United States is still not committing to a Cold War against China; it's certainly within its power to do so, and it can win.
    This isn't 1970, and our national survival isn't at stake; China doesn't have 1000 nuclear weapons pointed at the US like the Soviet Union did, so it's not worth our while to go toe to toe with China (yet).
    "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inst View Post
    I still don't understand why the United States is still not committing to a Cold War against China;
    Because the US would have to borrow the money from china to do it. Cold wars aren't cheap

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    Because the US would have to borrow the money from china to do it. Cold wars aren't cheap
    Really???

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  4. #19
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Two things...

    CNN title "Biden in Crisis Mode" with a footage of him and Abe in the background... All this in a Electronics shop window. Wife asks, what's wrong with Biden, he had heart attack?

    Interesting how things heat up whenever US focus is. Guys like the attention or else doesn't matter.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    Because the US would have to borrow the money from china to do it. Cold wars aren't cheap

    Really X2???

    Could the debt withstand the nuke's radiation?

    Recently the Fed plummed China into lower place.

    http://useconomy.about.com/od/moneta...ional-Debt.htm

    http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h41/current/
    Last edited by Enzo Ferrari; 08 Dec 13, at 05:06.

  6. #21
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    East Asia is dangerously moving toward something resembling early twentieth-century Europe.

    South Korea Expands Air Defense Zone To Partially Overlap With China's

  7. #22
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    U.S. sends new submarine-hunting jets to Japan amid East Asia tension
    USN & Japan already dominate the East China Sea as the East China sea is shallow and its very hard for Chinese subs to control that area.

    So what can China do in the East China Sea ? Try to assert itself over the waters, the air is the new realm.

    Whereas the South China sea is deeper and there is scope for Chinese subs to operate there. South China sea is one area the Chinese will not give up on dominating.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo Ferrari View Post
    Really X2???
    "really" is the kind of response I get from my kids when we are at the toy store and I have to tell them they can't get those fancy new toys to play cowboys and indians with their neighbour, cause it cost money. Money their poor dad doesn't have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo Ferrari View Post
    Could the debt withstand the nuke's radiation?
    If we are going to indulge in this little fantasy, then the answer is, yes, cause the survivors of a US wasteland will still owe the survivors of a chinese wasteland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo Ferrari View Post
    Recently the Fed plummed China into lower place.
    it'll be shortlived whatever it is, cause next year, china is going to be alot richer than it was the previous year cause more american businesses are offshoring.

    I wouldn't be surprised if we see more ADIZ in future cause a richer china means more aircraft to patrol those ADIZ.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    USN & Japan already dominate the East China Sea as the East China sea is shallow and its very hard for Chinese subs to control that area.
    Based on your hypothesis, if its shallow for the chinese subs, it'll be shallow for the Japanese subs et al. So that only leaves us with littoral ships of which china has plenty and Japan has too few and the US has diddly at the moment (or at least until they get their LCS together but then where to base those death traps?)

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post

    If we are going to indulge in this little fantasy, then the answer is, yes, cause the survivors of a US wasteland will still owe the survivors of a chinese wasteland.

    it'll be shortlived whatever it is, cause next year, china is going to be alot richer than it was the previous year cause more american businesses are offshoring.

    I wouldn't be surprised if we see more ADIZ in future cause a richer china means more aircraft to patrol those ADIZ.
    Bullshitting, in the state of war, the mutual holding of national debts each other were void.

    Also, you were not aware that the difference of nuclear power, come back getting 8000+ more nukes to achieve MAD.

    Don't always mentioned the debt, France already got a bitter lesson named Treaty of Versailles. Even if American wished, they will print every single paper money with your change.
    Last edited by Enzo Ferrari; 08 Dec 13, at 15:46.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    If we are going to indulge in this little fantasy, then the answer is, yes, cause the survivors of a US wasteland will still owe the survivors of a chinese wasteland.
    Oh shut up! 24 nukes ain't going to laid waste to the US.
    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    Based on your hypothesis, if its shallow for the chinese subs, it'll be shallow for the Japanese subs et al. So that only leaves us with littoral ships of which china has plenty and Japan has too few and the US has diddly at the moment (or at least until they get their LCS together but then where to base those death traps?)
    Really, just shut the hell up. I'll bet on the Japanese ships any day.

  12. #27
    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    "really" is the kind of response I get from my kids when we are at the toy store and I have to tell them they can't get those fancy new toys to play cowboys and indians with their neighbour, cause it cost money. Money their poor dad doesn't have.
    Where you been? Kids don't play cowboys and indians anymore. That's so 1950s.



    If we are going to indulge in this little fantasy, then the answer is, yes, cause the survivors of a US wasteland will still owe the survivors of a chinese wasteland.
    How do you arrive at this reply? Warring nations do not recognize each others debts.


    it'll be shortlived whatever it is, cause next year, china is going to be alot richer than it was the previous year cause more american businesses are offshoring.
    Citations please. The rate of off-shoring is not increasing, as this Bureau of Labor Statistic chart shows.

    Attachment 34574


    I wouldn't be surprised if we see more ADIZ in future cause a richer china means more aircraft to patrol those ADIZ.
    More aircraft don't justify more ADIZs; bona fide security considerations do. The purpose of its new ADIZ is clearly to reinforce territorial claims. China seems to regard its new found wealth as a green flag to throw its weight around. This could end badly for China given its dependence on foreign trade and foreign raw materials.

    And you, sir, need to stop being dismissive of other posters' comments.
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    24 nukes ain't going to laid waste to the US.
    No leader can justify 1 retaliatory strike on its own let alone 24 hits over the complete annihilation of another country. Thats just out of touch.

    Secondly, no one knows for sure what their exact number of warheads are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Really, just shut the hell up. I'll bet on the Japanese ships any day.
    You're moaning about a different context here. Double Edge posed the hypothesis that the East China Sea was shallow. not sub friendly. More littoral. Less big ships

    Also, Japanese ships are armed with harpoons, whose effective range are alot less than the chinese equivalent.

    read what Toshi Yoshihara & James R. Holmes had to say.

    http://thediplomat.com/2012/09/the-m...e-destroyer/3/

    "On paper, at least, this officially makes China’s the leading indigenous Asian navy. Once the 052D contingent joins the fleet, the PLAN can expect to take on any regional fleet—excluding the U.S. Navy, of course—with better-than-average prospects of success. It will command a 16:6 advantage over the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force, 16:3 over the South Korean Navy, and 16:9 over the combined Japanese and South Korean fleets. That’s significant."
    Last edited by winton; 09 Dec 13, at 09:13.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    Where you been? Kids don't play cowboys and indians anymore. That's so 1950s.
    cowboys and indians was my analogy for the cold war.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    How do you arrive at this reply? Warring nations do not recognize each others debts.
    But the winning side can still recognize what is owed to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    Citations please. The rate of off-shoring is not increasing, as this Bureau of Labor Statistic chart shows.
    FDI from the US to china has risen this year.

    China's FDI inflow rises 1.24 pct in October - Xinhua | English.news.cn

    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    More aircraft don't justify more ADIZs; bona fide security considerations do. The purpose of its new ADIZ is clearly to reinforce territorial claims.
    No, but its pointless to have one without aircrafts to monitor and enforce. They don't justify, but they are a pre-requisite. I'm sure you'll agree that having a few more ADIZ would boost their national defence.

    One side claims the ADIZ is to reinforce territorial claims, the other national security considerations. Which side is right? Of course you are going to say your side.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    China seems to regard its new found wealth as a green flag to throw its weight around. This could end badly for China given its dependence on foreign trade and foreign raw materials.
    We've seen this before with the US, its nothing new. Who do you think the chinese copied the idea of an ADIZ from?

    Every country is dependant on trade and the the bulk of the raw materials china needs is to make the goods the world wants and needs.

    I think the chinese could throw alot more weight around, but are encumbered by their non interference policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    And you, sir, need to stop being dismissive of other posters' comments.
    I'm not being dismissive, I'm disputing or offering a different viewpoint. Geopolitics isn't an exact science.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by winton View Post
    cowboys and indians was my analogy for the cold war.

    But the winning side can still recognize what is owed to them.

    FDI from the US to china has risen this year.

    China's FDI inflow rises 1.24 pct in October - Xinhua | English.news.cn

    No, but its pointless to have one without aircrafts to monitor and enforce. They don't justify, but they are a pre-requisite. I'm sure you'll agree that having a few more ADIZ would boost their national defence.

    One side claims the ADIZ is to reinforce territorial claims, the other national security considerations. Which side is right? Of course you are going to say your side.

    We've seen this before with the US, its nothing new. Who do you think the chinese copied the idea of an ADIZ from?

    Every country is dependant on trade and the the bulk of the raw materials china needs is to make the goods the world wants and needs.

    I think the chinese could throw alot more weight around, but are encumbered by their non interference policy.



    I'm not being dismissive, I'm disputing or offering a different viewpoint. Geopolitics isn't an exact science.
    Cowboys and indians was my analogy for the cold war. ---- Cold War I is over.

    FDI from the US to china has risen this year.---------China PMI from 2006-2013 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

    One side claims the ADIZ is to reinforce territorial claims, the other national security considerations. Which side is right? Of course you are going to say your side.---------------- Where were the Chinese Bombers when Korea expand her ADIZ and military exercise with American / British Navy, talk is cheap.

    We've seen this before with the US, its nothing new. Who do you think the chinese copied the idea of an ADIZ from? Every country is dependant on trade and the the bulk of the raw materials china needs is to make the goods the world wants and needs.----------------- Some country depends more natural resource from outside, some less, this was one of the reason why war existed.

    I'm not being dismissive, I'm disputing or offering a different viewpoint. Geopolitics isn't an exact science. --------- Geopolitics is not exact art either.

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