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A-10 Warthog - possible victim of the sequestration

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  • Originally posted by tuna View Post
    This will be fought tooth and nail by rated Air Force officers, but putting more drones in makes sense - all the arguments fall short, but it will take a long time to see changes in this.
    One simple EMP and your entire fleet will never see the skies again.
    Chimo

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    • ^That's not very different from the current fleet.


      Originally posted by tuna View Post
      But they're cost in a shootdown is Zero pilots, zero Personnel Recovery assets / personnel. If the target is high risk, send more drones than they have missiles. We can always print money, we can't print more people.
      My point was just that they're not cheap and expendable. Moreso than manned aircraft, yes, but still assets that need to be reasonably protected. Most people think they're just RC planes that cost a few thousand bucks.

      And there are PLENTY of arguments that don't fall short. Many of them technical, tactical, and political/legal. Drones absolutely have an expanding role in modern warfare and that trend is going to continue. But for a variety of reasons, manned aircraft are simply not going away anytime soon. I'm of the opinion that the F-22/F-35 will not America's last manned fighter.
      Last edited by Jimmy; 23 Dec 14,, 03:45.

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      • Originally posted by tuna View Post
        But they're cost in a shootdown is Zero pilots, zero Personnel Recovery assets / personnel. If the target is high risk, send more drones than they have missiles. We can always print money, we can't print more people.
        No. We will still have recovery asset losses. There will be things on those drones that we will not want the enemy to have. And some of those things will be sensitive enough that we will want "Eyes On" to either recover the equipment or ensure its destruction.

        TRAP- Tactical Recovery of Aircraft and Personnel

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        • We'll still have recovery forces because we don't use them exclusively for downed airmen. Most aircraft will just be destroyed in place, which is already the norm.

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          • Originally posted by Jimmy View Post
            ^That's not very different from the current fleet.
            Yeah but we still can get B52s into the air with zero opposition.
            Chimo

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            • it still amazes me that they have a platform that is inexpensive, easy to work on, rugged, and does what its supposed, and it's always the first thing on the chopping block.

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              • Originally posted by bfng3569 View Post
                it still amazes me that they have a platform that is inexpensive, easy to work on, rugged, and does what its supposed, and it's always the first thing on the chopping block.
                The cynic in me says that this is precisely the problem. Cheap aircraft have no lobies to support them...

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                • Originally posted by bfng3569 View Post
                  it still amazes me that they have a platform that is inexpensive, easy to work on, rugged, and does what its supposed, and it's always the first thing on the chopping block.
                  It's because it performs a mission the Air Force is reluctant to do...namely CAS.

                  While individuals organizations embrace it it is not high in the corporate mind set of the Air Force as their reason for being.

                  Its cool to do Air 2 Air, Air 2 mud.

                  How many Tank Killer Aces are luaded by the USAF?

                  But shoot down an airplane!!!!
                  “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                  Mark Twain

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                  • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                    It's because it performs a mission the Air Force is reluctant to do...namely CAS.

                    While individuals organizations embrace it it is not high in the corporate mind set of the Air Force as their reason for being.

                    Its cool to do Air 2 Air, Air 2 mud.

                    How many Tank Killer Aces are luaded by the USAF?

                    But shoot down an airplane!!!!
                    I think Ben Thompson put it most succinctly on his "Badass of the Week" website (pardon the language, but it does add "flavor"):

                    "Probably the most telling indicator of the Warthog's ultimate badassitude come from it's numbers when we were fucking up the Iraqi Republican Guard in 1991. During Desert Storm, A-10s flew 8,100 sorties, with a mission capable rate of 95.7%. They were credited with killing 987 tanks, 926 artillery pieces, 1,106 trucks, 51 SCUD missile launchers, and a shitload of support vehicles and bunkers. I mean, holy shit, those hotshot flyboy prissy fighter pilots get a goddamned medal, a blowjob from a supermodel and the rank of "Flying Ace" after only five fucking kills... these Desert Storm A-10 pilots were getting racking up those kinds of numbers on their bathroom breaks. When it comes to no-bullshit death from above badassitude, the A-10 Warthog is where it's at."

                    Badass of the Week: The A-10 Warthog
                    "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                    • Not to mention the monetary value of all of those targets destroyed by the A-10.

                      Comment


                      • I was looking for an old article on the two seat, upgraded version of the A-10 that never was, when I came across this.

                        Pretty interesting read, especially when you get down thru it to were the article talks about the Gun Pod equipped F-16's being deployed and used in Desert Storm.

                        The F-16 Gun Pod That Tried To Shoot Down The A-10 Warthog

                        and this is what I was looking for, just thought it was an interesting read.

                        It Could Have Been: The A-10B N/AW

                        Posted on April 25, 2011 by aviationintel.com




                        That’s right folks, everybody’s favorite fire-breathing pig had a two seat cousin, built from an existing single-seater as a demonstrator for an all weather and night attack expansion of the A-10A Warthog. The A-10B N/AW (Night / All Weather) would attempt to make the A-10 more exportable as well as more relevant to the USAF, and a few countries were actually interested in the B model as a sea control platform focused on littoral “brown water” and anti-piracy operations. Included in the A-10B N/AW concept were an advanced inertial navigation system, a cutting edge HUD, improved radios, terrain following radar, low light TV camera, FLIR and laser targeting pods amongst other improvements. The A-10B N/AW was test in 1979-1980 with positive results, but alas, by the early 1990s, with the Air Force brass firmly in love with super fast, super thirsty and singularly crewed tactical aircraft, the A-10B N/AW was killed and in its place the powers the be promised the A-10 would get the modular LANTIRN night targeting and navigational system. This never happened, which is not a surprise as the mutli-role F-16 Block 40 received the system instead.

                        Today, some two decades later, we see a mature night attack capability in the A-10C, with its cutting-edge precision engagement package and pilot mounted NVGs, but still one has to wonder just how fantastic of a forward air control and battlefield interdiction platform the A-10B N/AW model could have possibly been. In the wars of the last decade there in no doubt that another man in cockpit could not have been bad to have had as directing rapid and precise firepower over a 3 dimensional battlefield for troops in dangerously close contact with the enemy is a very demanding task, especially while trying to fly an airplane at the same time.

                        The only A-10B ever created rests at the slowly budding Edwards AFB museum as seen below.

                        *Special thanks to Joe Copalman on this one, he was right about the A-10B - F-15E competition for funds. Cheers buddy!




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                        • My understanding was that during the Gulf War, A-10s got hit a lot and had to be diverted away from Republican Guard units due to taking excessive battle damage.

                          The Air Force states that with recent experience in Iraq and Afghanistan, 80% of CAS missions were performed by platforms other than the A-10. Add to that the obvious trend towards increasingly heavy reliance on precision guided munitions rather than unguided rockets and gun strafing. I only see this trend increasing as smaller and more accurate munitions such as the SDB start to hit their stride.

                          As cool a plane as it is, I really have to wonder if the A-10 really brings all that many unique CAS utilities that can't be provided by other platforms at this point.

                          A Hellfire doesn't care if it is shot from an A-10, an F-15, or a Reaper, and when it comes to guns, I suspect that the 25mm GAU-22 on the F-35 will be plenty capable against anything but heavy armor.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by bfng3569 View Post
                            I was looking for an old article on the two seat, upgraded version of the A-10 that never was, when I came across this.

                            Pretty interesting read, especially when you get down thru it to were the article talks about the Gun Pod equipped F-16's being deployed and used in Desert Storm.

                            The F-16 Gun Pod That Tried To Shoot Down The A-10 Warthog
                            Waaaaat... I thought the F-4 had proven these pods were a bad idea...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
                              My understanding was that during the Gulf War, A-10s got hit a lot and had to be diverted away from Republican Guard units due to taking excessive battle damage.

                              The Air Force states that with recent experience in Iraq and Afghanistan, 80% of CAS missions were performed by platforms other than the A-10. Add to that the obvious trend towards increasingly heavy reliance on precision guided munitions rather than unguided rockets and gun strafing. I only see this trend increasing as smaller and more accurate munitions such as the SDB start to hit their stride.

                              As cool a plane as it is, I really have to wonder if the A-10 really brings all that many unique CAS utilities that can't be provided by other platforms at this point.

                              A Hellfire doesn't care if it is shot from an A-10, an F-15, or a Reaper, and when it comes to guns, I suspect that the 25mm GAU-22 on the F-35 will be plenty capable against anything but heavy armor.
                              Survivability is a huge and legitimate concern with the A-10. All the stuff in this post is true, but the 80% stat isn't because the A-10 wasn't effective, it's because we were using drones, B-1s, F/A-18s, AV-8s, F-15Es, F-16s, Mirages, Rafales, helicopters, etc. OF COURSE the A-10 made up a minority of the sorties. The A-10 should certainly have a place because it's very effective at what it does, in the right environment. It's not invincible, and the mess we're seeing now is partially due to the unacceptable nature of any friendly aircraft losses in combat. The A-10's vulnerability is nothing new...in a Fulda Gap scenario they were expected to hit 100% casualties (damaged/destroyed) and out of the war entirely within a couple of weeks.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Stitch View Post
                                I think Ben Thompson put it most succinctly on his "Badass of the Week" website (pardon the language, but it does add "flavor"):

                                "Probably the most telling indicator of the Warthog's ultimate badassitude come from it's numbers when we were fucking up the Iraqi Republican Guard in 1991. During Desert Storm, A-10s flew 8,100 sorties, with a mission capable rate of 95.7%. They were credited with killing 987 tanks, 926 artillery pieces, 1,106 trucks, 51 SCUD missile launchers, and a shitload of support vehicles and bunkers. I mean, holy shit, those hotshot flyboy prissy fighter pilots get a goddamned medal, a blowjob from a supermodel and the rank of "Flying Ace" after only five fucking kills... these Desert Storm A-10 pilots were getting racking up those kinds of numbers on their bathroom breaks. When it comes to no-bullshit death from above badassitude, the A-10 Warthog is where it's at."

                                Badass of the Week: The A-10 Warthog
                                But for all those stats, the proven killer during ODS was the F-111. The 84 deployed F-111s (144 A-10s were in ODS) were responsible for more than 1500 armor kills. It earned the name "Tank Plinker". It also attacked key military production facilities; chemical, biological, and nuclear sites; airfields, bunkers, C3 assets, and portions of the integrated air defense system with great success.

                                At the end of the day, the USAF learned that an aircraft with FLIR and able to self designate Laser guided munitions is what made a difference in the AtG battle. The A-10 had neither.

                                The A-10 had the cool look for photo ops. Grunts think it looks cool coming in low and slow but it was the other planes that were more effective killers. With less chance of loss.

                                Technology has made it possible to do CAS without getting down in the mud. And do it more effective.
                                Last edited by Gun Grape; 24 Dec 14,, 04:36.

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