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  • #31
    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    I hope you are right because the A-10 brings capability that nothing else can. CAS, SAR escort, long loiter/ intimidation... its only real weakness is sensor fusion.
    They've somewhat addressed that with the A-10C avionics upgrade program:

    "Making an A-10 "C"

    Set to run through 2011, the Warthog’s upgrade to A-10C configuration will transform the full inventory of 356 Air Force, Air National Guard, and Reserve fighters. It will, in the words of the pilots, be making an analog jet aircraft digital.

    Collectively referred to as "Precision Engagement," the program revamps the aircraft’s cockpit with multifunction color displays, integrates a laser designator, new throttles, and stick grips, and incorporates targeting pods (the A-10 can now host both the Sniper and Litening targeting pods).

    The aircraft also boasts a Situational Awareness Data Link which connects the pilot with troops on the ground. Similar to the more prolific Link 16 system, SADL shares mission information via gateways—computer portals that transfer information between different formats, helping to increase the efficiency of passing data from air to ground.

    In short, a lot less fiddling and more flying. "It got us into the 21st century, where we really should have been a decade ago," said Lt. Col. Kevin Campbell, the head of the 175th Maintenance Squadron and a veteran A-10 pilot who aided testing efforts for the C.

    "Before it became a C, the integration was a lot more manual," said Lt. Col. Dan Marino, the 175th Operations Group commander and a 22-year veteran A-10 driver. "You’d click through menus, and if you missed, you had to cycle back through."

    Many of the old weapon systems, such as dumb bombs and rocket pods, were analog weapons systems. Tracking targets sometimes required a lot of fast switch changes. Now, most of those tasks have been integrated onto the stick and throttle—so a pilot can select a weapon and fire it and never have to take his hands off the stick.

    The power and wiring system were also revamped, allowing more information to be stored in the aircraft’s computers and creating the open architecture necessary to mount newer and more precise weapons on the aircraft—including the GBU-38, the GBU-12, and Wind-Corrected Munitions Dispensers. This married the precision weapon capability often associated with "fast movers" with the low ceiling and persistence of the A-10’s close air support capabilities."

    Source: Not Fade Away
    Last edited by Stitch; 04 Nov 13,, 21:41.
    "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
      The question I have. Is this a move to allow other ME countries to buy the Osprey?

      Last year it looked as if Saudi Arabia would become the first foreign buyer. Is this a move to open the door for that?
      This was an article from July 2012.

      Countries vying to be first non-U.S. buyer of V-22 Osprey
      By Andrea Shalal-Esa
      Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:41am IST

      FARNBOROUGH, England (Reuters) - Several countries are competing to become the first foreign buyer of the U.S. military's V-22 tilt-rotor aircraft, which flies like a plane but takes off and lands like a helicopter, according to the Marine Corps colonel who runs the program.

      Colonel Greg Masiello said officials from more than 12 countries, including eight air chiefs, got demonstration flights at the Farnborough International Airshow this week, as well as at the Royal International Air Tattoo, a huge military airshow in England last weekend.

      "We're ready, and the language that we're hearing from several of the customers is that they're ready and they're vying to be ... the first. That's not a bad position to be in," Masiello told Reuters in an interview as a Marine Corps version of the plane flew overhead. He said a first foreign purchase could be announced within the next year.

      Israel, the United Arab Emirates and Japan are among countries interested in buying the V-22, or Osprey, built by Boeing Co and Textron Inc's Bell Helicopter unit, Boeing officials told reporters earlier this week. Canada has also been mentioned as a possible buyer.

      Scott Donnelly, chief executive of Textron, told Reuters on Tuesday that Israel and the United Arab Emirates were the countries most often named as early buyers.

      Boeing and Bell have been trying to drum up foreign interest in the aircraft for years. But potential buyers have been waiting to see how the plane did in combat, as well as because of its relatively high purchase and use prices -- both of which are dropping.

      Washington is increasingly looking to foreign military sales to keep the cost of weapons systems from rising as the Pentagon cuts its own orders to strip $487 billion from its planned defense budgets over the next decade.

      In the case of the V-22 Osprey, Washington hopes foreign orders will keep the production line running past 2018.

      News of heightened interest in the V-22 comes amid reports of the plane's use in combat as the fleet approaches 150,000 flight hours and continued improvement in its readiness rate, Masiello said. Recent tests also proved the plane could be used on an aircraft carrier and underscored its ability to travel over 2,600 miles round-trip to carry out a simulated rescue.

      But there are also negatives, including two crashes this year and concerns raised by Japanese officials in Okinawa, who are concerned about the plane's use off their island.

      Compared with a helicopter, the plane is relatively expensive at about $67 million a copy. But it has far greater payload capabilities and much longer range.

      Masiello said his office was also pitching the plane for use by the Navy when it completes an analysis on how to replace its current fleet of C-2 aircraft, which are used to ferry supplies to aircraft carriers.

      The V22 attracted a great deal of interest at the Dubai air show last November and has turned out to be darling of this year's Farnborough air show as well.

      Masiello said Boeing and Bell would produce 39 V-22s this year and a peak of about 42 next year before tapering off production in subsequent years. That means foreign orders could easily be incorporated into the production plan.

      "All our indications are that this isn't chatter. There are serious talks and negotiations" with potential foreign buyers, Masiello said, adding that the possible orders would be for eight to 12 planes.

      Boeing, Bell and the Marines have also begun negotiating a second five-year, multibillion dollar deal for 98 copies of the plane, down from 174 planes in a first, $11 billion order.

      Masiello said the Pentagon had received the companies' offer. But he declined to give any pricing details, except to say that it included a pledge to ensure at least 10 percent in savings in the multi-year agreement versus a single-year deal.

      (Additional reporting by Paul Ingrassia; Editing by Dan Grebler)

      Aerospace & Defen

      Countries vying to be first non-U.S. buyer of V-22 Osprey | Reuters
      Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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      • #33
        I feel the A-10 was a great aircraft that performed a singular role very well in its day, but that the need for a launching aircraft to have eyes on a target area is much reduced by modern sensors, designators, and PGMs. In fact until the 'C' upgrade, A-10s actually were less able to deliver GPS guided PGMs and inferior in that way for providing CAS. In the current conflicts they are largely overkill, outside the fact I believe they are cheaper to operate than say an F-16. I think this aircraft has probably seen its role largely overtaken by UAVs, B-52's with guided ordnance, and everything in between. And outside of its role it has little use. Given the rather unlikely scenario of the US getting involved in yet another protracted ground war, it does make some sense to retire the type in my opinion.

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        • #34
          UAVs are extremely limited in their CAS abilities, and heavy bombers have their own limitations (such as draining the available fuel for everyone else). Smaller aircraft, like A-10s, F-16s, and F-15Es have been doing the vast majority of CAS work, for good reason.

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          • #35
            I think the A-10 is the #1 CAS platform there is, and having done exercises and simulated work with the IAF (which flies mainly F-15's and F-16's), I would love to have a couple Hogs overhead if the shite hit the fan. In another Valley of Death of Valley of Tears scenario like in the 1973 Yom Kippur War, Hogs would be invaluable. Add the extremely close proximity of IAF bases to the front lines and IAF short turnaround times and you'd have nearly continuous CAS presence overhead.
            Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

            Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
              Never been a fan of the A-10. Aside from the gun, one that has a limited use on the modern battlefield, it doesn't bring anything special to the game. But it has great press.

              The Army isn't getting A-10s if the AF finally is allowed to retire them.
              I'm a little surprised at your evaluation of the A-10 Gunny. I would have thought that being up close and personal with the whole CAS paradigm would make you a bit more enthusiastic. I would be interested in knowing what aviation platform you do prefer for the role. I don't have a dog in the fight; just interested in learning from another professional. I do find it interesting that the airplane it "relieved" for both the Air Force and Navy was a whole other order of relative antiquity. My brother-in-law's first ride was the venerable "Spad," and his last the RA-5C, and if you asked him which mission and airplane he preferred flying, he wouldn't even bat an eye before replying "Spad."



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              • #37
                Originally posted by desertswo View Post
                I'm a little surprised at your evaluation of the A-10 Gunny. I would have thought that being up close and personal with the whole CAS paradigm would make you a bit more enthusiastic. I would be interested in knowing what aviation platform you do prefer for the role. I don't have a dog in the fight; just interested in learning from another professional. I do find it interesting that the airplane it "relieved" for both the Air Force and Navy was a whole other order of relative antiquity. My brother-in-law's first ride was the venerable "Spad," and his last the RA-5C, and if you asked him which mission and airplane he preferred flying, he wouldn't even bat an eye before replying "Spad."



                Interestingly, when the Air Force first looked into a "new" COIN aircraft halfway through the Vietnam War, they actually considered re-opening the A-1 assembly line, but cost analysis said it wouldn't be worth it. The hardest part was actually not the aircraft itself, but the manufacture of the Wright R-3350 engine, which went out of production in 1955; I suppose they could've replaced the -3350 with a turbo-prop, maybe an Alison T56?
                "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Stitch View Post
                  Interestingly, when the Air Force first looked into a "new" COIN aircraft halfway through the Vietnam War, they actually considered re-opening the A-1 assembly line, but cost analysis said it wouldn't be worth it. The hardest part was actually not the aircraft itself, but the manufacture of the Wright R-3350 engine, which went out of production in 1955; I suppose they could've replaced the -3350 with a turbo-prop, maybe an Alison T56?
                  I have some experience with the seagoing version of the T56, the Allison 501K-17 which is used as the prime mover in the ship's service electrical generators in the Spruance-, Ticonderoga-, and Arleigh Burke-class ships. The problem with replacing one of those big piston-poppers with anything gas turbine driven is that it then becomes subject to the same concern that kept the Skyraider in that mission for so long; the dreaded "golden BB." According to my brother-in-law who flew three combat tours in Vietnam, two in the Skyraider and one in the A-4, you could take out an entire bank of those pistons and the dang thing would still get you home. Meanwhile a relatively small piece of FOD can knock a jet out of the air if it catches the right number of compressor or turbine blades. All that aside, I suspect that had anyone really given it much thought there were probably enough R-3350s lying around out at Davis-Monthan AFB in any one of the roughly 30 aircraft in which it served as the power plant that were no longer flying, to keep some Spads in the air a little bit longer.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by desertswo View Post
                    I have some experience with the seagoing version of the T56, the Allison 501K-17 which is used as the prime mover in the ship's service electrical generators in the Spruance-, Ticonderoga-, and Arleigh Burke-class ships. The problem with replacing one of those big piston-poppers with anything gas turbine driven is that it then becomes subject to the same concern that kept the Skyraider in that mission for so long; the dreaded "golden BB." According to my brother-in-law who flew three combat tours in Vietnam, two in the Skyraider and one in the A-4, you could take out an entire bank of those pistons and the dang thing would still get you home. Meanwhile a relatively small piece of FOD can knock a jet out of the air if it catches the right number of compressor or turbine blades. All that aside, I suspect that had anyone really given it much thought there were probably enough R-3350s lying around out at Davis-Monthan AFB in any one of the roughly 30 aircraft in which it served as the power plant that were no longer flying, to keep some Spads in the air a little bit longer.
                    Yes, those radial engines WERE tough, no doubt about it; part of the reason the Navy stuck with them as long as possible (as evidenced by the longevity of the AD). I've heard of F4F's/F6F's/Corsairs/AD's making it back to the base/carrier with two or three entire cylinders missing (and sometimes spraying oil all over the windscreen!).
                    "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                    • #40
                      They used to say the only replacement for an A-10 is another A-10. In terms of close air support, its record speaks for itself. The platform was designed from the outset to destroy tanks while remaining highly survivable. It may not be all that suited to today's asymmetrical warfare but if there's ever a scenario involving mass armored attacked...perhaps if North Korea one day attacked South Korea, A-10Cs and AH-64Es would be two of the most effective weapons available.

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                      • #41
                        Gunny,

                        Remember what the mission of the A-10 was....defeat of GSFG on the plains of Germany as part of the AirLand battle.

                        As a component of that is was a superb weapon system.

                        And it was an absolute gun/bomb truck which was/is extremely survivable in a high AD threat environment (1980s Europe/1990s Iraq/introduction to now North Korea).

                        I too love the ABLE DOG/Spad but it was nowhere near survivable.
                        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                        Mark Twain

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by caster View Post
                          They used to say the only replacement for an A-10 is another A-10. In terms of close air support, its record speaks for itself. The platform was designed from the outset to destroy tanks while remaining highly survivable. It may not be all that suited to today's asymmetrical warfare but if there's ever a scenario involving mass armored attacked...perhaps if North Korea one day attacked South Korea, A-10Cs and AH-64Es would be two of the most effective weapons available.
                          That's a very optimistic statement, due to the problems of survivability against the modern surface-to-air threat. Apaches are even more vulnerable, as shown in Karbala in '03.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Jimmy View Post
                            That's a very optimistic statement, due to the problems of survivability against the modern surface-to-air threat. Apaches are even more vulnerable, as shown in Karbala in '03.
                            And they have even occasionally been taken down by a "golden BB" in Afghanistan/Iraq.
                            "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                              Gunny,

                              Remember what the mission of the A-10 was....defeat of GSFG on the plains of Germany as part of the AirLand battle.

                              As a component of that is was a superb weapon system.
                              no disagreement there. For a battle. we never fought it was great. For tactics we don't use, its a great platform. For WW2 type air support its a great platform.

                              Since the 90s it a bit long in the tooth. And I never want it doing gun runs close to troops
                              And it was an absolute gun/bomb truck which was/is extremely survivable in a high AD threat environment (1980s Europe/1990s Iraq/introduction to now North Korea).
                              No, Gotta disagree here. We don't know about Europe, but we do know about ODS. They were pulled from tank plinking to looking for scuds after, not doing such a good job and 4(?) getting shot down.

                              The Queen of tank killing during ODS was the F-111.
                              I too love the ABLE DOG/Spad but it was nowhere near survivable.
                              It was the good Capt that posted that not the Gunny

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                              • #45
                                Hi is this picture from vietnam war ?

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