Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ahead of 1971 war, Nixon branded his envoy to India as traitor

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    genocide noun (Concise Encyclopedia)
    Deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, religious, political, or ethnic group.

    Genocide - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

    The Pakistani Military certainly committed atrocities (as did the terrorists/insurgents supported by India that it was fighting in East Pakistan), but there was never any policy/plan/effort (on the part of the government of Pakistan or those responsible for governing East Pakistan) to 'deliberately and systematically destroy the local ethnic Bengali population', and therefore the use of the word 'genocide' is not warranted.
    Lets use the real definition shall we? I'll bold the parts that are revelvant

    Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    (a) Killing members of the group;

    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

    Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

    (a) Genocide;

    (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

    (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

    (d) Attempt to commit genocide;

    (e) Complicity in genocide. "

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Oracle View Post
      I am not an illegal Bangladeshi immigrant mate. My forefathers came to undivided India, in very early 1900s to work on railway lines being built by the British. Many stayed back in Bangladesh. Our family were one of the earliest settlers alongwith the original inhabitants.
      bengali or tribal?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Oracle View Post
        I am not an illegal Bangladeshi immigrant mate. My forefathers came to undivided India, in very early 1900s to work on railway lines being built by the British.
        I don't think that's what antimony was implying. He himself is also a Bengali, if I'm not mistaken.
        Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
        -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by anil View Post
          bengali or tribal?
          Mixed ethnicity. Liger. :) Hindu though.

          Originally posted by Tronic View Post
          I don't think that's what antimony was implying. He himself is also a Bengali, if I'm not mistaken.
          Oh! Probably.
          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Oracle View Post
            Mixed ethnicity. Liger. :) Hindu though.
            No not that, you said your forefathers migrated from bangladesh before partition, I assumed you were any of the jummas from CHT.
            Last edited by anil; 19 Oct 13,, 11:45.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by anil View Post
              No not that, you said your forefathers migrated from bangladesh before partition, I assumed you were any of the jummas from CHT.
              Heard of Kacharis? Four sub-divisions are:

              1. Bodo Kachari (Kokrajhar)
              2. Dimasa Kachari (Dima Hasao, formerly N.C.Hills)
              3. Mesh Kachari (Assam-WBengal border areas, and upper Assam)
              4. Tipra Kachari (Tripura)

              One among the 4 mentioned above.

              Forefathers from my mother's side.
              Last edited by Oracle; 19 Oct 13,, 12:07. Reason: Added explanation
              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

              Comment


              • #52
                Frankly the whole region confuses me. There are too many cluster groups plus the same groups seem to be known with too many different names in different regions.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by anil View Post
                  Frankly the whole region confuses me.
                  We like to retain our mystery. You should travel to the NE. It's beautiful.

                  Originally posted by anil View Post
                  There are too many cluster groups plus the same groups seem to be known with too many different names in different regions.
                  That's incorrect. A Biate, is known as Biate in Assam, Mizoram or even in Bangalore.

                  If you want to know more, shoot. Let's take the rest through PM, if you do not mind.
                  Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                    I am not an illegal Bangladeshi immigrant mate. My forefathers came to undivided India, in very early 1900s to work on railway lines being built by the British. Many stayed back in Bangladesh. Our family were one of the earliest settlers alongwith the original inhabitants.

                    Here, check this tunnel, it was completed in 1903:-

                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]34157[/ATTACH]

                    Took this picture with a Yashica cam way back, probably 1995-96.
                    Hey man, never implied you were, and would not judge you if you were.

                    Just meant that you were a Bong.
                    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Oracle View Post

                      Oh! Probably.
                      to maker matters simpler, ghoti dad, bangal mom :)

                      I am not sure if most here would understand that reference though ;)
                      "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by antimony View Post
                        Hey man, never implied you were, and would not judge you if you were.

                        Just meant that you were a Bong.
                        Kemon achen! Juthai! No worries, I didn't take that personally. Should have added in my post, you quoted. Btw, I am tribal more from my looks and eating habits.

                        Originally posted by antimony View Post
                        to maker matters simpler, ghoti dad, bangal mom :)

                        I am not sure if most here would understand that reference though ;)
                        Ah, so you're from WB. In NE we don't use the term bangal. By that word we mean Bengali muslims.


                        { Kemon Achen = How are you (in Bengali)
                        Juthai = Hello (in well ...)
                        Ghoti = Bengali from West Bengal
                        Bangal = Hindu Bengali from Bangladesh or NE India, according to people in WB
                        Bangal = Bengali Muslim, according to people in NE.}
                        Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by zraver View Post
                          Lets use the real definition shall we? I'll bold the parts that are revelvant

                          Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
                          And on the basis of the highlighted part of the 'real definition', my argument remains the same, that there is no evidence of any 'deliberate intent/policy' on the part of the government of East or West Pakistan to "destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group", and therefore the term 'genocide' does not apply to the actions of the PA in East Pakistan.
                          Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 19 Oct 13,, 15:08.
                          Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                          https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                            I don't blame you too. Those were circumstances. But denying a genocide ...

                            There are people still living, telling horror stories to great grand children - actually they get passed like family heirloom.
                            Oracle,

                            I am truly sorry for any suffering your family may have endured during the conflict in East Pakistan - I have never denied that atrocities occurred (at the hands of some units of the PA), but as you yourself point out, these were the 'circumstances' of the time. The Mukti Bahini itself engaged in numerous atrocities of her own, and each side can point to the other as being the cause of a 'collapse in discipline' given the horrors of war. However, atrocities committed during a conflict do not automatically translate into 'genocide', as the definitions posted by Zraver and myself indicate.
                            Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 19 Oct 13,, 15:21.
                            Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                            https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                              And on the basis of the highlighted part of the 'real definition', my argument remains the same, that there is no evidence of any policy on the part of the government of East or West Pakistan to "destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group", and therefore the term 'genocide' does not apply to the actions of the PA in East Pakistan.
                              May you be so kind as to go through the links below. Might change your stance.

                              Gendercide

                              Snippets:
                              As was also the case in Armenia and Nanjing, Bengali women were targeted for gender-selective atrocities and abuses, notably gang sexual assault and rape/murder, from the earliest days of the Pakistani genocide. Indeed, despite (and in part because of) the overwhelming targeting of males for mass murder, it is for the systematic brutalization of women that the "Rape of Bangladesh" is best known to western observers

                              Two [Pakistani soldiers] went into the room that had been built for the bridal couple. The others stayed behind with the family, one of them covering them with his gun. They heard a barked order, and the bridegroom's voice protesting. Then there was silence until the bride screamed. Then there was silence again, except for some muffled cries that soon subsided. In a few minutes one of the soldiers came out, his uniform in disarray. He grinned to his companions. Another soldier took his place in the extra room. And so on, until all the six had raped the belle of the village. Then all six left, hurriedly. The father found his daughter lying on the string cot unconscious and bleeding. Her husband was crouched on the floor, kneeling over his vomit. (Quoted in Brownmiller, Against Our Will, p. 82.)
                              Bangladesh war: The article that changed history

                              The war Bangladesh can never forget

                              Bangladesh 1971: War Crimes, Genocide and Crimes against Humanity

                              Bangladesh 1971: Addressing Claims of War Crimes, Genocide And Crimes Against Humanity In detail.

                              Ghulam Azam: The mastermind planner of genocide happened in Bangladesh during 1971

                              3 million people were ethnically cleansed, and that is an official count. Unofficial count would be much higher. If this is not genocide, what is?
                              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                                May you be so kind as to go through the links below. Might change your stance.

                                Gendercide

                                Snippets:


                                Bangladesh war: The article that changed history

                                The war Bangladesh can never forget

                                Bangladesh 1971: War Crimes, Genocide and Crimes against Humanity

                                Bangladesh 1971: Addressing Claims of War Crimes, Genocide And Crimes Against Humanity In detail.

                                Ghulam Azam: The mastermind planner of genocide happened in Bangladesh during 1971

                                3 million people were ethnically cleansed, and that is an official count. Unofficial count would be much higher. If this is not genocide, what is?
                                All of the claims made above have been challenged, and lack credible evidence supporting them. The figure of '3 million killed' is ludicrous, as are the figures of 'women raped', and various historians have argued against the prevailing propaganda/narrative presented in the links above.

                                Again, atrocities (even if numerous) do not establish 'genocide'. At best one could argue that 'war crimes' were committed by the individuals involved (in the PA, Razakars and Mukti Bahini), but genocide cannot be established merely by narrating horrible accounts of atrocities.
                                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X