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  • #31
    Originally posted by Tronic View Post
    I said Chinese made, not POF built. There are plenty on the black market.

    Dera/tribal cottage industry weapons have nothing to do with the Kashmiri militants, which have been trained and supplied by the Pakistani army (rogue or official, whichever you choose) over the last 2+ decades. Even the Taliban's mainstay weapons are not products of the tribal industry but are leftover imports from the '80s, which are maintained by the use of cheap replacement parts from the tribal arms industry.

    I posted a pic of killed Kashmiri militants earlier, and here (http://i.imgur.com/gl1NFJS.jpg), you can see that the kit on these militants is nothing like what you would find on the Taliban.
    Taliban Training these days is as good as any other country official armed forces

    Beside this They dont need govt or army support when they can buy the Coalition forces left over from markets in many cities of Pakistan.
    NATO weapons readily available in Pakistan | Asia | DW.DE | 05.09.2013

    Now watch the video

    ” Must Watch” Pakistan Taliban Said We Warn Musharraf Otherwise We Will Kill HIM


    And even In india they are available.

    ISI or Pak Army might have supported the kashmiri militants in the 90's.But i doubt they do it now.as The kashmiri has already reached a saturated state of training and enough man power.That i doubt they even need Pakistan help these days.

    I do watch the kashmir pages on facebook and the hatred i see among 80% of kashmiri on those pages seems like they are more of an raw material to join the kashmiri youth for freedom.

    Other than this ISI is already alot busy and so Does the pak army with more than 1lac troops deployed and many of the other sources.Atleast until the operation in the west is On.I doubt Pakistan would do so to force india for another war.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by farhan_9909 View Post

      And even In india they are available.
      really??

      Comment


      • #33
        Concerned over LoC violations, Kayani proposes impartial UN investigations
        By Web DeskPublished: October 11, 2013

        RAWALPINDI: Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani said on Friday that the accusations made by the Indian military against Pakistan Army were unfortunate, unfounded and provocative, and that Pakistan’s restraint should not be exploited for levelling baseless allegations that harm prospects of peace.

        According to a press release issued by Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR), the comments of the Indian Army Chief alleging that Pakistan Army and Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) supported a recent militant insurgency in Keran sector of Indian administered Kashmir, were described by Kayani as unfortunate, unfounded and provocative.

        The army chief said that he was concerned about the continued violations along the Line of Control from across the border. He proposed that India should reciprocate Pakistan’s suggestion of holding either a joint or an impartial investigation, preferably by the United Nations, into the LoC incidents.

        “Pakistan Army was exercising restraint but the same should in no way be used as a pretext for leveling such baseless allegations that vitiate prospects of regional peace.”
        Addressing a group of officers at General Headquarters, the COAS reiterated that the Pakistan Army was fully supportive of the peace process initiated by the government.

        Concerned over LoC violations, Kayani proposes impartial UN investigations – The Express Tribune
        ========

        An excellent idea, though I doubt the Indian Army is going to follow through with it, especially if the implications made in the Indian Express article (posted earlier by Farhan) have any degree of truth to them.
        Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
        https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

        Comment


        • #34
          NEW DELHI — The Indian army has ended a two-week-long operation against heavily armed militants who it says tried to cross into Indian Kashmir with the support of the Pakistani army. It says eight militants have been killed. The latest fighting could set back recent efforts by India and Pakistan to bring calm to the Kashmir border, where tensions have been rising.

          Senior Indian army commanders say soldiers recovered a large cache of sophisticated arms, including AK-47 rifles, communication equipment and night vision devices during the two-week-long battle with a large group of infiltrators who tried to enter Indian Kashmir from the Pakistani side.

          The fighting took place in thick forests along the Himalayan slopes. Several Indian soldiers were injured in the operations.

          Militants routinely attempt to cross into Indian Kashmir before the onset of winter to foment a revolt against Indian rule. But the army says the scale of this incursion has been the largest in the last decade.

          Lieutenant General Sanjiv Chachra said the infiltration could not have been possible along the border, also known as Line of Control or LC, without the support of the Pakistani army.

          “We are almost on eyeball to eyeball. We can see each other. At such a point in time for a large group of terrorists like this infiltrating, you mean to say it can be without the complicity of the Pakistani army? I mean this is ridiculous. So therefore tacit support along the LC [Line of Control] is always there. And if you see the quantum of arms and ammunition, most of the arms have got Pakistan markings. Yesterday, you were shown an identity card, you were shown a letter, all these are evidences. We don’t have to prove this," said Chachra.The Pakistani army has denied the accusation.

          The Indian and Pakistani prime ministers recently agreed to defuse tensions along the Kashmir border following a meeting in New York on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly. But the latest fighting and accusations by the Indian army are likely to set back their efforts to strengthen a cease-fire that has appeared more fragile following a series of clashes between Indian and Pakistani troops this year.

          The Himalayan region of Kashmir is the core dispute between the two countries and has been the trigger for two of their three wars.

          Efforts to find a solution have made no headway. While Pakistan favors mediation on the issue, India insists it is a dispute the two countries have to solve on their own.

          Indian President Pranab Mukherjee repeated that position as he addressed reporters on a flight returning from an official visit to Turkey.

          "Our approach in respect of Pakistan that it is essential bilateral issues, which are to be resolved between India and Pakistan themselves within the framework of Shimla agreement.Therefore, the question of any third country's intervention on this issue does
          not arise," said President Mukherjee.

          Pakistan’s new government has pushed for peace talks with India, but New Delhi says Islamabad’s support for cross border militancy in Kashmir is the biggest hurdle to progress. Islamabad denies supporting militants to support an insurgency in Indian Kashmir.


          India Ends Limited Operation Against Militants in Kashmir
          Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
            Concerned over LoC violations, Kayani proposes impartial UN investigations
            By Web DeskPublished: October 11, 2013

            RAWALPINDI: Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani said on Friday that the accusations made by the Indian military against Pakistan Army were unfortunate, unfounded and provocative, and that Pakistan’s restraint should not be exploited for levelling baseless allegations that harm prospects of peace.

            According to a press release issued by Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR), the comments of the Indian Army Chief alleging that Pakistan Army and Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) supported a recent militant insurgency in Keran sector of Indian administered Kashmir, were described by Kayani as unfortunate, unfounded and provocative.

            The army chief said that he was concerned about the continued violations along the Line of Control from across the border. He proposed that India should reciprocate Pakistan’s suggestion of holding either a joint or an impartial investigation, preferably by the United Nations, into the LoC incidents.

            “Pakistan Army was exercising restraint but the same should in no way be used as a pretext for leveling such baseless allegations that vitiate prospects of regional peace.”
            Addressing a group of officers at General Headquarters, the COAS reiterated that the Pakistan Army was fully supportive of the peace process initiated by the government.

            Concerned over LoC violations, Kayani proposes impartial UN investigations – The Express Tribune
            ========

            An excellent idea, though I doubt the Indian Army is going to follow through with it, especially if the implications made in the Indian Express article (posted earlier by Farhan) have any degree of truth to them.
            For the last 3 decades, Pakistani goal in Kashmir has been to make the conflict international, while the Indian goal has been to keep it bilateral. Pakistani supported groups have carried out kidnappings and attacks on foreigners, hijacked airlines, and PA waged the Kargil conflict while waving the nuclear saber; all to make Kashmir an international talking point. It backfired. So this proposal by Kayani to involve the UN is quite a witty one. ;)
            Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
            -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
              “We are almost on eyeball to eyeball. We can see each other. At such a point in time for a large group of terrorists like this infiltrating, you mean to say it can be without the complicity of the Pakistani army? I mean this is ridiculous. So therefore tacit support along the LC [Line of Control] is always there. And if you see the quantum of arms and ammunition, most of the arms have got Pakistan markings. Yesterday, you were shown an identity card, you were shown a letter, all these are evidences. We don’t have to prove this," said Chachra.The Pakistani army has denied the accusation.
              If the PA is expected to spot any infiltration attempt on her side (given the 'eyeball to eyeball' conditions described in the excerpt above), then so is the Indian Army - they should have shot all the alleged infiltrators at the LoC.

              I am not sure what the point of highlighting the 'arms with Pakistani markings' is - as Farhan pointed out earlier, NATO weapons and infantry rations and equipment is freely available for sale in the black market (after being pilfered in Afghanistan), and legal Western, Chinese and Russian arms are available legally and on the black market. Showing the media an 'ID card' and 'letter' does not, for any rational individual, suggest Pakistani State/institutional complicity in these infiltration attempts. It is in fact a rather desperate attempt to try and implicate the Pakistani Army in recent events along the LoC.
              Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
              https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                For the last 3 decades, Pakistani goal in Kashmir has been to make the conflict international, while the Indian goal has been to keep it bilateral. Pakistani supported groups have carried out kidnappings and attacks on foreigners, hijacked airlines, and PA waged the Kargil conflict while waving the nuclear saber; all to make Kashmir an international talking point. It backfired. So this proposal by Kayani to involve the UN is quite a witty one. ;)
                " He proposed that India should reciprocate Pakistan’s suggestion of holding either a joint or an impartial investigation, preferably by the United Nations, into the LoC incidents."

                Kayani made two proposals - a joint India-Pakistan investigation or an impartial (third party) led investigation.
                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                Comment


                • #38
                  Its no secret the two have been fighting over the Kasmir region for along time.

                  All of these past actions over Kasmir could not have happened with out itelligence knowledge. Its doubtful they could even operate in the region with out catching someones eyes. That is if they are even looking.

                  By not respecting the LOC line as they formally agreed (however was not included into the Shimla agreement) because it would have caused backlash for Bhutto who knew they had a problem with extrememist back home and it would force them to make a decision. Either go to war with India over the region or hunt down the extrememist with the PA.

                  Hardly even a guess as too which one they chose given todays numerous conflicts with extremeists.

                  Bhutto should have chosen to eliminate the extrememists, instead of passify them it would have cost him his political career and probably his life but atleat by now (decades later) it would have produced a better thought train as to what was actually inhabiting the country and why it has so many troubles with its extrememists today.

                  One cannot claim "sovereignty" when one either will not deal with the problem at home while extremists continue to attack in other countries and dwell on their soil or one is making promises they fully know they cannot keep in fear of that problem just to keep their political career.

                  A real leader would have hunted down the problem and either eliminated it by either conflict, peaceful agreement or capture and deport them from the country altogether.

                  Wishing the problem away to keep ones political standing intact simply will not do.

                  Karzi may one day learn this valuable lesson as well but doubtful.
                  Last edited by Dreadnought; 11 Oct 13,, 19:47.
                  Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                    An excellent idea, though I doubt the Indian Army is going to follow through with it, especially if the implications made in the Indian Express article (posted earlier by Farhan) have any degree of truth to them.
                    Let me get one thing clear. Are you saying no infiltration has occurred (mujahideen or otherwise) from the Pakistani side into the LOC side?
                    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Dreadnought, the "extremists" were created by the Pakistanis during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. And Bhutto was dead by then. It was Zia and later Bhutto's daughter Benazir in power when the militancy in Kashmir started. The "extremists" weren't a problem from Pakistan's viewpoint. They were the solution, since an actual war against India was deemed futile given what happened in 1971. So why would they destroy them?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
                        Dreadnought, the "extremists" were created by the Pakistanis during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. And Bhutto was dead by then. It was Zia and later Bhutto's daughter Benazir in power when the militancy in Kashmir started. The "extremists" weren't a problem from Pakistan's viewpoint. They were the solution, since an actual war against India was deemed futile given what happened in 1971. So why would they destroy them?
                        Sorry to confuse the issue I meant in 1971 when the agreement was signed betweeen Pakistani Prime Minister, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, and the then Indian Prime Minister, Mrs Indira Gandhi.

                        An obvious answer to that is look at what is and has happened to the Pakistani people from the extremeists and their governments failure to eradicate them.

                        You have India, the US and others fighting them within their country to eradicate them. Then they turn around and car bomb, bomb and murder the Pakistanis on a daily basis.

                        And yet there are no doubt still ties while all of this goes on.

                        Its just amazing that country has not gone into full blown civil war.
                        Last edited by Dreadnought; 11 Oct 13,, 20:20.
                        Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                          NEW DELHI — The Indian army has ended a two-week-long operation against heavily armed militants who it says tried to cross into Indian Kashmir with the support of the Pakistani army. It says eight militants have been killed. The latest fighting could set back recent efforts by India and Pakistan to bring calm to the Kashmir border, where tensions have been rising.

                          Senior Indian army commanders say soldiers recovered a large cache of sophisticated arms, including AK-47 rifles, communication equipment and night vision devices during the two-week-long battle with a large group of infiltrators who tried to enter Indian Kashmir from the Pakistani side.

                          The fighting took place in thick forests along the Himalayan slopes. Several Indian soldiers were injured in the operations.

                          Militants routinely attempt to cross into Indian Kashmir before the onset of winter to foment a revolt against Indian rule. But the army says the scale of this incursion has been the largest in the last decade.

                          Lieutenant General Sanjiv Chachra said the infiltration could not have been possible along the border, also known as Line of Control or LC, without the support of the Pakistani army.

                          “We are almost on eyeball to eyeball. We can see each other. At such a point in time for a large group of terrorists like this infiltrating, you mean to say it can be without the complicity of the Pakistani army? I mean this is ridiculous. So therefore tacit support along the LC [Line of Control] is always there. And if you see the quantum of arms and ammunition, most of the arms have got Pakistan markings. Yesterday, you were shown an identity card, you were shown a letter, all these are evidences. We don’t have to prove this," said Chachra.The Pakistani army has denied the accusation.

                          The Indian and Pakistani prime ministers recently agreed to defuse tensions along the Kashmir border following a meeting in New York on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly. But the latest fighting and accusations by the Indian army are likely to set back their efforts to strengthen a cease-fire that has appeared more fragile following a series of clashes between Indian and Pakistani troops this year.

                          The Himalayan region of Kashmir is the core dispute between the two countries and has been the trigger for two of their three wars.

                          Efforts to find a solution have made no headway. While Pakistan favors mediation on the issue, India insists it is a dispute the two countries have to solve on their own.

                          Indian President Pranab Mukherjee repeated that position as he addressed reporters on a flight returning from an official visit to Turkey.

                          "Our approach in respect of Pakistan that it is essential bilateral issues, which are to be resolved between India and Pakistan themselves within the framework of Shimla agreement.Therefore, the question of any third country's intervention on this issue does
                          not arise," said President Mukherjee.

                          Pakistan’s new government has pushed for peace talks with India, but New Delhi says Islamabad’s support for cross border militancy in Kashmir is the biggest hurdle to progress. Islamabad denies supporting militants to support an insurgency in Indian Kashmir.


                          India Ends Limited Operation Against Militants in Kashmir
                          Even a dumbest terrorist wont or Let suppose he was sent by Pak army would carry his CNIC with himself, or weapons market with Pakistan Name.

                          The letter part was very funny.

                          I hope they Know if ISI by Any mean was really to send a militant force across border into India.they are not this much dumb to give them their CNIC,letters and most important Such low quality rifle which over here people dont even use for personal conflict let alone fighting a well trained indian army

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                            Sorry to confuse the issue I meant in 1971 when the agreement was signed betweeen Pakistani Prime Minister, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, and the then Indian Prime Minister, Mrs Indira Gandhi.

                            An obvious answer to that is look at what is and has happened to the Pakistani people from the extremeists and their governments failure to eradicate them.

                            You have India, the US and others fighting them within their country to eradicate them. Then they turn around and car bomb, bomb and murder the Pakistanis on a daily basis.

                            And yet there are no doubt still ties while all of this goes on.

                            Its just amazing that country has not gone into full blown civil war.
                            The reason is that Pakistanis are too much socially integrated.
                            Last edited by farhan_9909; 11 Oct 13,, 21:35.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                              " He proposed that India should reciprocate Pakistan’s suggestion of holding either a joint or an impartial investigation, preferably by the United Nations, into the LoC incidents."

                              Kayani made two proposals - a joint India-Pakistan investigation or an impartial (third party) led investigation.
                              You mean like the 26/11 attacks investigation? Why should India share any more intelligence with Pakistan and risk exposing it's covert HUMINT assets in your country, when those assets could be better used to fend off future attacks? IK Gujral did so in the '90s and Pakistan responded by betraying the man who decided to invest trust in Pakistan, so much so that his name is today sullied among Indian strategic circles. Investing trust in Pakistan seems like a bad investment. All your neighbours seem to think so. So does your ally, the US.

                              IMO, only way to proceed with peace is to keep the door for business and trade open, while keeping a strong vigil on security. If Pakistanis remain apprehensive in developing a mutually-reliant relationship in the business sphere, than obviously, talk of solving security issues is very far fetched.
                              Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                              -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by farhan_9909 View Post
                                most important Such low quality rifle which over here people dont even use for personal conflict let alone fighting a well trained indian army
                                Atleast drop that...

                                You have yet to show me these "low quality rifles"...
                                Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                                -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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