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Thread: General Giap is dead

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by cataphract View Post
    Hi, sorry I'm late to the party, I've been busy with real life. I may be repeating some of what has already been said, but since you specifically want an answer from me, here goes:

    1. Past humiliations: The occupation of Vietnam by Imperial China for over 1000 years and the resentment Vietnamese harbour arising from it.

    2. Ho Chi Minh was afraid of the Chinese: HCM was hardly the people's leader in Mao's style. He was educated and worked in France, for starters. He also was typical of the nationalist leaders that grew prominent in the 1940s South East Asia. The fear/loathing of Chinese is a direct outcome of the nationalist experiment in SEA, where it was your country vs your neighbour vs their neighbour. A similarly antagonist relationship is found between Vietnam/Cambodia, Thailand/Cambodia, Malaysia/Indonesia, etc, even today.
    1.the concept of thousand year occupation presupposes the persistance over centuries of 2 stable entities and peoples , VN & " China " . About " China " , it changed face many times during those years ( everyone can learn about this by itself ) . About VN , no such nation or state or ethnic group of significant size existed then : at first like native Indians in north and south America , geographic VN and Canton province was populated by a number of aboriginal tribes who were either repulsed in the mountains or mingled and assimilated by Chinese colonists ( like in spanish America ; in north A. , native Indians were nearly obliterated ) . VN language contains 60 to 70% of chinese vocabulary and VN culture ( rites , beliefs , clothes , architecture , etc ) is a copy and paste of Chinese culture . VN names and surnames are " Han chinese " , it means that they can be written in Chinese characters . The relation betweenn VN and " China " is the same as between Latin America and Spain . When Latin America emerges independant , its leaders were Spanish educated colonists and assimilated natives . Can it be said , VN during those 1000 years belonged to different "Chinese " kingdoms and empires which succeeded one another .
    To back up my assertions , extracts from http://www.sacei07.org/Newsletter61.pdf A HISTORY OF THE VIETNAMESE by Keith W. Taylor, US Historian :
    "Who and what we call Vietnamese did not exist prior to the centuries during which Vietnamese ancestors lived as inhabitants of Chinese dynastic empires. Every aspect of Vietnamese culture appeared as a result of being in that empire and from the existence of a large Chinese speaking population that developed over several generations and that eventually melted into the local population when the imperial connection was severed."
    2. About HCM 's remark " better .... than to sniff .... " , it's has been discussed already ; everybody can make its own opinion , according to the argumentation and the attached documentation .
    3. HCM never got any education in France . During many years , he wandered over many countries and made a living with many odd jobs , enduring much misery ( he got tberculosis ) . In 1946 , he returned to VN to start armed struggle against French colonialists and lived in the jungles of north VN
    ( he nearly died of malaria ) until 1954 , year of Dien bien Phu .( a short resume can be read with English Wikipedia " Ho chi Minh ")

  2. #92
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    Hint: Paragraphs.

  3. #93
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    I think kimini is using some sort of translator that doesn't allow for font and formatting. Don't hold it against him if English is not his first language.

  4. #94
    Contributor cataphract's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
    1.the concept of thousand year occupation presupposes the persistance over centuries of 2 stable entities and peoples , VN & " China " . About " China " , it changed face many times during those years ( everyone can learn about this by itself ) . About VN , no such nation or state or ethnic group of significant size existed then : at first like native Indians in north and south America , geographic VN and Canton province was populated by a number of aboriginal tribes who were either repulsed in the mountains or mingled and assimilated by Chinese colonists ( like in spanish America ; in north A. , native Indians were nearly obliterated ) . VN language contains 60 to 70% of chinese vocabulary and VN culture ( rites , beliefs , clothes , architecture , etc ) is a copy and paste of Chinese culture . VN names and surnames are " Han chinese " , it means that they can be written in Chinese characters . The relation betweenn VN and " China " is the same as between Latin America and Spain . When Latin America emerges independant , its leaders were Spanish educated colonists and assimilated natives . Can it be said , VN during those 1000 years belonged to different "Chinese " kingdoms and empires which succeeded one another .
    To back up my assertions , extracts from http://www.sacei07.org/Newsletter61.pdf A HISTORY OF THE VIETNAMESE by Keith W. Taylor, US Historian :
    "Who and what we call Vietnamese did not exist prior to the centuries during which Vietnamese ancestors lived as inhabitants of Chinese dynastic empires. Every aspect of Vietnamese culture appeared as a result of being in that empire and from the existence of a large Chinese speaking population that developed over several generations and that eventually melted into the local population when the imperial connection was severed."
    Vietnam is hardly unique in that regard. Most nations that you see today did not exist 150 years ago. The concept of a nation state is a European one from the 17th century. Nation states formed in Asia post-1945 are reflections of their recent colonial past. The modern nation of Vietnam had its boundaries defined by the French after the Tonkin war.

    Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
    2. About HCM 's remark " better .... than to sniff .... " , it's has been discussed already ; everybody can make its own opinion , according to the argumentation and the attached documentation .
    3. HCM never got any education in France . During many years , he wandered over many countries and made a living with many odd jobs , enduring much misery ( he got tberculosis ) . In 1946 , he returned to VN to start armed struggle against French colonialists and lived in the jungles of north VN
    ( he nearly died of malaria ) until 1954 , year of Dien bien Phu .( a short resume can be read with English Wikipedia " Ho chi Minh ")
    Fair enough, my point is that HCM was more cosmopolitan than Mao.

  5. #95
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    I'll be getting back to this when I have finished my safari. Suffice to say that I detect the foul stench of what would be described as a 'colonialist mentality' if the author were white. There is an underlying arrogance to the dismissal of any notion of a distinctive Vietnamese culture and identity that is more at home in C19th European discourse than a C20th notice board.


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  6. #96
    Contributor cataphract's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    I'll be getting back to this when I have finished my safari. Suffice to say that I detect the foul stench of what would be described as a 'colonialist mentality' if the author were white. There is an underlying arrogance to the dismissal of any notion of a distinctive Vietnamese culture and identity that is more at home in C19th European discourse than a C20th notice board.
    I think it would be more symbolic if you could argue your case from the one African country that escaped colonialism

    Looking forward to your comments.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by cataphract View Post
    I think it would be more symbolic if you could argue your case from the one African country that escaped colonialism

    Looking forward to your comments.
    OK, nice one.

    To be fair, they did have to put up with 5 years of Italian occupation. Results: some crappy colonial architecture; theft and/or destruction of priceless historical artefacts; bunch of dead Ethiopians; grissini (those crunchy little bread sticks). Vietnam paid a higher price, but they did a damned site better out of the deal too.


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