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Thread: Afghanistan, US, China, India and Pakistan - A Genuine Interview

  1. #46
    Contributor cataphract's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    He's the mayor of Kabul.
    That's the best you can get in Afghanistan. His predecessors were no better.

  2. #47
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    Najibullah and Omar commanded their own armies.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Surrendering 100 miles of your own territory only to learn that it meant squat all is scared shitless.
    Wondering what you mean by 100 miles of territory, square miles?

    This is not the Zhenbao Island you are talking about, right?

    Zhenbao Island - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  4. #49
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    Main force concentrations were 100 miles behind the border, meaning that Soviet forces must travel 100 miles into China before they can engage Chinese strong forces. The idea was to stretch the Soviet LOC. The 1979 Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan showed that 100 miles meant squat all to the Soviets which spurred the PLA onto a modernization program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Main force concentrations were 100 miles behind the border, meaning that Soviet forces must travel 100 miles into China before they can engage Chinese strong forces. The idea was to stretch the Soviet LOC. The 1979 Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan showed that 100 miles meant squat all to the Soviets which spurred the PLA onto a modernization program.
    Most if not all of the division level headquarters are located in major population centers. And very few population centers are within 100 miles of Soviet border. I think it's just simple logistics.

    To this day, PLA don't guard borders. It's the PAP's and in the old days, militia's duty.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdude View Post
    Most if not all of the division level headquarters are located in major population centers. And very few population centers are within 100 miles of Soviet border. I think it's just simple logistics.
    Soviet garrisons are even further away but that does not change the fact that the PLA was counting on that extra 100 miles to stretch the Soviet LOCs and was planning to surrendering 100 miles of Chinese territory.

    What's more, that 100 miles meant nothing to the Soviets.

    The simple fact is that the battle was going to be in Chinese cities and not the border area ... if those Chinese cities survived nukes and fire bombing (doubtful).

    Quote Originally Posted by cdude View Post
    To this day, PLA don't guard borders. It's the PAP's and in the old days, militia's duty.
    The border area has been agreed to and both sides will maintain their formations 100 miles from the border.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Soviet garrisons are even further away but that does not change the fact that the PLA was counting on that extra 100 miles to stretch the Soviet LOCs and was planning to surrendering 100 miles of Chinese territory.

    What's more, that 100 miles meant nothing to the Soviets.

    The simple fact is that the battle was going to be in Chinese cities and not the border area ... if those Chinese cities survived nukes and fire bombing (doubtful).
    Well, the China in the mess of cultural revolution against the Soviet Union at her peak? Yeah, 100 miles sound about right. It might mean nothing to the Soviets, it made a lot of difference for PLA logistics. China simply didn't have the roads and trucks to support an inch-by-inch defense against the Russians.

    You know whats scared shitless? Gaddafi gave up nuclear weapon program was scared shitless. Did Mao or Deng fly to Moscow begging for peace? They didn't even bother talk to Moscow. They designed a workable strategy that in retrospect probably the best they could do. Nothing cowardly about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    The border area has been agreed to and both sides will maintain their formations 100 miles from the border.
    Not just borders with Russia, PAP and provincial military districts patrol all the borders. Not the PLA, at least not the hardcore PLA.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdude View Post
    Well, the China in the mess of cultural revolution against the Soviet Union at her peak? Yeah, 100 miles sound about right. It might mean nothing to the Soviets, it made a lot of difference for PLA logistics. China simply didn't have the roads and trucks to support an inch-by-inch defense against the Russians.
    Oh baloney, the Chinese were even prepared to retreat. When the enemy attacks, we retreat. When the enemy stalls, we harrass. When the enemy retreats, we attack. Translation, the Chinese were going to lose the war well before they can start fighting. Lop Nor and Peking were going to be nuclear fireballs while the 38 and 39 GAs would be running straight south.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdude View Post
    You know whats scared shitless? Gaddafi gave up nuclear weapon program was scared shitless. Did Mao or Deng fly to Moscow begging for peace? They didn't even bother talk to Moscow. They designed a workable strategy that in retrospect probably the best they could do. Nothing cowardly about that.
    Zhou En-Lai went begging on hands and knees to the Americans to form an alliance. That's scared shitless.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdude View Post
    Not just borders with Russia, PAP and provincial military districts patrol all the borders. Not the PLA, at least not the hardcore PLA.
    1979 and 1984 1st and 2nd Sino-VN Wars, not to mention the garrisons on the Sino-Indo border.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Oh baloney, the Chinese were even prepared to retreat. When the enemy attacks, we retreat. When the enemy stalls, we harrass. When the enemy retreats, we attack. Translation, the Chinese were going to lose the war well before they can start fighting. Lop Nor and Peking were going to be nuclear fireballs while the 38 and 39 GAs would be running straight south.
    If I gave you 4 million farmers with AK's plus some old tanks here and there, 10 nukes against a military force with hundreds of thousands of tanks and tens thousands of nukes, what would you do? Wake me up if anyone could think of anything better. The best case scenario is to draw the Soviets into the "people's war" which is what happened in Afghanistan.


    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Zhou En-Lai went begging on hands and knees to the Americans to form an alliance. That's scared shitless.
    If you've ever seen a picture of Zhou, you would know he's not capable of begging on both hands as his left hand was disabled. I am sure he wanted to make an alliance with Nixon. That's just being smart strategically.

    What did Zhou give up to be friend with Nixon?

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdude View Post
    If I gave you 4 million farmers with AK's plus some old tanks here and there, 10 nukes against a military force with hundreds of thousands of tanks and tens thousands of nukes, what would you do?
    I would not piss off the Soviets and start a war in the first place. That's being idiotic strategically.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdude View Post
    Wake me up if anyone could think of anything better. The best case scenario is to draw the Soviets into the "people's war" which is what happened in Afghanistan.
    The best case scenario is to abandon Maoism and adopt Soviet economic practices minus their military expenditures ... which is exactly what DXP did with the Americans.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdude View Post
    If you've ever seen a picture of Zhou, you would know he's not capable of begging on both hands as his left hand was disabled.
    The begging was real.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdude View Post
    I am sure he wanted to make an alliance with Nixon. That's just being smart strategically.
    He didn't have a choice. The PLA had determined that the Soviets were going to start a war to take Northern China and nuke the rest. Nixon was Zhou's only hope of avoiding this war.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdude View Post
    What did Zhou give up to be friend with Nixon?
    87 divisions. With China's reapproachment, China's participation in any future NATO-Warsaw Pact conflict was guarranteed. China cannot afford the Warsaw Pact to win. China would be next ... or first if Moscow decides to get rid of this monkey off her back before she takes on NATO.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    I would not piss off the Soviets and start a war in the first place. That's being idiotic strategically.

    The best case scenario is to abandon Maoism and adopt Soviet economic practices minus their military expenditures ... which is exactly what DXP did with the Americans.

    The begging was real.
    I agree with your first 2 bullets. But I don't buy the begging part. Begging happens when the other side has very little to gain, you are saying the US has nothing to gain allying with China? Then why did Nixon make it a big deal and visited Mao? Obviously it was a win-win situation and both sides benefited tremendously.

    Also Deng's economic reform was way more radical than the Soviet model
    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    He didn't have a choice. The PLA had determined that the Soviets were going to start a war to take Northern China and nuke the rest. Nixon was Zhou's only hope of avoiding this war.
    Apparently the Soviets was not as crazy as Mao thought they were. Or was it the China-US alliance stopped Soviets' plan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post

    87 divisions. With China's reapproachment, China's participation in any future NATO-Warsaw Pact conflict was guarranteed. China cannot afford the Warsaw Pact to win. China would be next ... or first if Moscow decides to get rid of this monkey off her back before she takes on NATO.
    Was the guarantee an oral one or was there any agreement signed?

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdude View Post
    I agree with your first 2 bullets. But I don't buy the begging part. Begging happens when the other side has very little to gain, you are saying the US has nothing to gain allying with China? Then why did Nixon make it a big deal and visited Mao? Obviously it was a win-win situation and both sides benefited tremendously.
    Nixon played the Chinese and the Soviets off of each other. He made as big hoopla with detente as he did with Mao's visit. He also signed SALT I which was far more important than his Mao visit.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdude View Post
    Also Deng's economic reform was way more radical than the Soviet model
    He also came along after the Soviet economy stagnated and the American economy took off. During the height of the Cold War, both models provided for their citizens a standard of living unimagined by any Chinese leader. Electricity in every house.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdude View Post
    Apparently the Soviets was not as crazy as Mao thought they were. Or was it the China-US alliance stopped Soviets' plan?
    Nixon, in his memoirs, told Brezhnev no to his face during one of their summits.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdude View Post
    Was the guarantee an oral one or was there any agreement signed?
    Mutual understanding. Strategic necessity didn't allow the Chinese any other choice. NATO-Warsaw Pact goes up, the Chinese have a choice of not letting the 45 divisions facing them going West ... or risk 187 divsions coming East after the Soviets get through with NATO.

  13. #58
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    OOE,

    Do you think the Soviets would get through NATO?

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blademaster View Post
    OOE,

    Do you think the Soviets would get through NATO?
    Which year?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Which year?
    Anytime.

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