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  • #31
    Only on the WAB can a question asked by a Zoomie Eagle driver about 18th Century POW/EPW policies answered by an Army Grunt/Loggie/Historian migrate to a discussion between an Air Force Acqusition Officer and a Queen's Canadian Colonel of Engineers.

    I love it here!
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

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    • #32
      hey i ain't no SAF/AQ bubba! :) i'm a polished "Regional Affairs Specialist", dagnabit. :)
      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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      • #33
        Originally posted by astralis View Post
        hey i ain't no SAF/AQ bubba! :) i'm a polished "Regional Affairs Specialist", dagnabit. :)
        What ever.....a pogue's a pogue!

        And of course I left out the best line....and the Regional Affairs Specialist ends up arguing with said Colonel about Mao!
        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
        Mark Twain

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        • #34
          Originally posted by astralis View Post
          what factors would make china less ungovernable than the British Raj, which was held by approximately 50,000 British soldiers....and at least six times that native troops?
          Batshit crazy Chinese who fell for the Taiping and later on the GPCR. Actually, now that I think about it, the only difference between Mao and Hong is that Mao won.

          Originally posted by astralis View Post
          whose native troops crushed every uprising against the Raj, and fought against the Afghans, and even shipped millions of soldiers overseas to fight for the White Queen?
          Mercenaries vs religious Crusaders. The British Indian Regiments were professional to the core. The Taipings and the Red Guards were ... well, batshit crazy.

          Originally posted by astralis View Post
          only reason why there was a warlord period was because the Qing devolved military and political authority down to the provinces when it became clear that they couldn't do jack all from the center.
          The most powerful warlords were actually Qing Generals commanding full armies. They had regionalism mainly because that's where they were based out of, much like Central Area for the Canadian 2nd Brigade.

          Originally posted by astralis View Post
          think about how China fought every single 19th-century war she fought-- regionally.
          Sino-French War in Vietnam.

          Originally posted by astralis View Post
          so how hard would it be for a Queen Victoria or whatever to take the place as Empress of China and have Han underlings? that's precisely what happened with india.
          The same kind of problems the Qing, Sun, Chiang, and Mao had.

          But we are getting away from the main point. The Brits winning in 1776 is not going to avert a lot of violence and a lot of bloodletting. The passions and hatre of foreigners in China would not have abated just because you replace the foreign Qings with the foreign Brits.

          Bat shit crazy boxers used kung fu against bullets. Just how much more bat shit crazy do you need to say Queen Victoria would have cowed them into place?
          Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 13 Aug 13,, 22:30.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by astralis View Post
            what factors would make china less ungovernable than the British Raj, which was held by approximately 50,000 British soldiers....and at least six times that native troops? whose native troops crushed every uprising against the Raj, and fought against the Afghans, and even shipped millions of soldiers overseas to fight for the White Queen?

            only reason why there was a warlord period was because the Qing devolved military and political authority down to the provinces when it became clear that they couldn't do jack all from the center. think about how China fought every single 19th-century war she fought-- regionally.

            so how hard would it be for a Queen Victoria or whatever to take the place as Empress of China and have Han underlings? that's precisely what happened with india.
            From what I understand it was a damned close thing. The much cursed Elgin was petitioned pretty hard in Beijing to intercede in helping Ward defeat the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom. As Elgin put it, the last thing we need is another India.
            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

            Leibniz

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            • #36
              Bat shit crazy boxers used kung fu against bullets. Just how much more bat shit crazy do you need to say Queen Victoria would have cowed them into place?
              i dunno...plenty of crazies in india and the british (or more accurate their native sepoys) slaughtered them all. then proceeded to round up the ringleaders and tie them to cannons.

              sure, there were people who hated foreigners in china...same with india. but the mass of peasants? they didn't care WHO ruled them as long as they did a half-way decent job of ruling them. that's why the taipings ended up losing, even more the british assistance to the Qing. cuz people found out they sucked even harder than the Qing.

              and i'm pretty sure the british would have done better than the Qing, Sun, Chiang, or Mao.
              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

              Comment


              • #37
                pari,

                From what I understand it was a damned close thing. The much cursed Elgin was petitioned pretty hard in Beijing to intercede in helping Ward defeat the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom. As Elgin put it, the last thing we need is another India.
                yup, it was very close already in OTL. the tipping factor was the prospect of another colony bordering Russia-- and the attendant costs in stationing an army as well as a naval station. later on the US started to screech in the background about the Open Door so they just gave it up.

                the brits certainly weren't concerned about the natives' ideas of them, one way or another.

                so if you're in a world where the British keep America and whose only real opponent is a technologically backward land power...pretty sure they would have gobbled china up. your average british viceroy, despite a good leavening of upper-class twit, was still the model of efficiency compared to most Qing-era provincial governors.
                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  i dunno...plenty of crazies in india and the british (or more accurate their native sepoys) slaughtered them all. then proceeded to round up the ringleaders and tie them to cannons.
                  You're proving my point.

                  Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  sure, there were people who hated foreigners in china...same with india. but the mass of peasants? they didn't care WHO ruled them as long as they did a half-way decent job of ruling them.
                  Qing was better Sun and Chiang.

                  Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  that's why the taipings ended up losing, even more the british assistance to the Qing. cuz people found out they sucked even harder than the Qing.
                  The worst of Chiang never outdid Mao's madness but I don't recall ML Chinese welcoming back Nationalist Armies from Taiwan.

                  Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  and i'm pretty sure the british would have done better than the Qing, Sun, Chiang, or Mao.
                  And Yuan did better than the Songs but that didn't stop the Mings.

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                  • #39
                    So Chogy....do you have any other questions? This one seems to have run its course!!!
                    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                    Mark Twain

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by astralis View Post
                      pari,



                      yup, it was very close already in OTL. the tipping factor was the prospect of another colony bordering Russia-- and the attendant costs in stationing an army as well as a naval station. later on the US started to screech in the background about the Open Door so they just gave it up.

                      the brits certainly weren't concerned about the natives' ideas of them, one way or another.

                      so if you're in a world where the British keep America and whose only real opponent is a technologically backward land power...pretty sure they would have gobbled china up. your average british viceroy, despite a good leavening of upper-class twit, was still the model of efficiency compared to most Qing-era provincial governors.
                      "Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun." - Rudyard Kipling

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