Turkey clears bird held as Israeli spy

[Firestorm]

The people of Gaza are legitimately angry with Israel, as they should be given Israel's continued oppression. That unfortunately translates to occasional low tech rockets being fired -- a crime. Is it really a mortal threat though? More rockets were launched during Cast Lead, but what was the civilian death count disparity? 1400 in Gaza to a handful of Israelis?

This is a neat trick. A punches B. B is larger and stronger and consequently packs a bigger wallop when he punches back. Now A and his supporters complain of B's brutality and oppression.

The rockets came before Cast Lead. Cast Lead was a response. If you don't want to suffer pain, don't start a fight. Especially with someone who can punch your lights out by flicking you with his fingers.

Regarding Gaza, no I don't agree with rockets being launched at Israel (Gaza's only ability to hurt Israel at all), but it's not a completely surprising reaction to the continued occupation (ok, I'll change that to illegal blockade), of Gaza. The people of Gaza are legitimately angry with Israel, as they should be given Israel's continued oppression.

You are reversing cause and effect here as well. The rockets came before the blockade. The blockade came only after Cast Lead and after the the rocket firing terrorists seized power in gaza. And Israel is not the only country blockading Gaza is it? The Egyptians are doing it as well.

[Goatboy]

Question: Who owns the area? Not Palestine, Not Abbas, Not Hamas. It was given to Israel by the worlds leading powers.

The area West of the Jordan (and, by the way, also East) were given to the Jews by the Principal Allied Powers at the Paris Peace Conference after WW1. Their decision was recorded in the minutes of the San Remo conference in April 1920. The Allied Powers were the only parties who had the right or power to dispose of this territory. This disposition was effected in the form of the Mandate for Palestine, which was adopted by the League of Nations in 1922 and assumed by the United Nations upon its creation in 1948, and nothing since 1922 changes the legal status of those internationally binding documents.

Nothing changes the legal status? How about the UN decision of the existence of the nation of Palestine, as of last year? The San Remo conference has about as much pull (with me especially), as claims that land is Israel's because scripture says so. Except Israel, everybody, the United States included, recognizes Palestine as the rightful sovereign over the West Bank and Gaza.

The UN now recognizes the Palestinians, However, also is well aware of Hamas. The same Hamas that has sparked attacks on Israel for the last two decades if not more. The same Hamas that the Israelis wont allow to get arms via Gaza. Although they still are.

The same Israel that restricts Gaza's fishing boats to 3 miles from the shore instead of internationally mandated 12 miles (crippling it's ability to feed itself), that prevents not just munitions, but cement, wood, baby food, buckets of KFC, toys, and a host of other items from entering Gaza? An Israel that claims all territory inside Gaza within 1 kilometer of the Israeli border is off limits to Palestinians. You could be shot by approaching the border. Israeli control over ports, all Gaza's airspace. Gaza is a prison. No wonder they're pissed.

[Goatboy]

This is a nice trick. A punches B. B is larger and stronger and consequently packs a bigger wallop when he punches back. Now A and his supporters complain of B's brutality and oppression.

The rockets came before Cast Lead. Cast Lead was a response. If you don't want to suffer pain, don't start a fight. Especially with someone who can punch your lights out by flicking you with his fingers.

Israel had a responsibility to avoid excessive destruction, especially amongst civilians. It failed miserably. With your logic we should have just nuked Kabul in 2001 -- maybe sowed the entire countryside with anthrax to eliminate any enemies. The world is complicated, as is the situation between Palestine and Israel -- and demands more respect than simply relegating their relationship, in war and in diplomacy, as "actors A and B".

[bigross86]

At least it is not college this time :Dancing-Banana:

Sure it is, what do you call writing papers? I have two seminars due in Spetember

[Dreadnought]

Nothing changes the legal status? How about the UN decision of the existence of the nation of Palestine, as of last year? The San Remo conference has about as much pull (with me especially), as claims that land is Israel's because scripture says so. Except Israel, everybody, the United States included, recognizes Palestine as the rightful sovereign over the West Bank and Gaza.


The same Israel that restricts Gaza's fishing boats to 3 miles from the shore instead of internationally mandated 12 miles (crippling it's ability to feed itself), that prevents not just munitions, but cement, wood, baby food, buckets of KFC, toys, and a host of other items from entering Gaza? An Israel that claims all territory inside Gaza within 1 kilometer of the Israeli border is off limits to Palestinians. You could be shot by approaching the border. Israeli control over ports, all Gaza's airspace. Gaza is a prison. No wonder they're pissed.

First off... My statements are not a matter of religion nor based upon it.

Secondly......

Maybe the Palestinian people should rely upon the very same factions (Hamas) that fire the rockets into Gaza and other places and commit terrorist acts to help support them with food, materials for building etc.

Problem is they can't, because they themselves caused the blockade to begin with. And afterall, It is a part of their "elected" government.

Don't like the blockade? Both land and sea based? Then elect a better government and not one where half of them are are a bunch of terrorist jerk offs who wreck the Peace every chance they get.

And the Palestinians blame the Israeli's when even Egypt has them blockaded as well?

I wonder why it is they dont blame the Egyptians?

You do notice with those blockades how quiet Gaza has been lately? No headlines, no rocket attacks.


Just how the UN can recognize this bunch as a "Palestinian" anything? When half seek true Peace and the other half under Hamas prefer rockets and attacks on the Israeli's instead of coming to the table with a legitimate Peace plan and real Peace.

And you want the Israeli's to just give that away, what happens when Hamas is that much closer to Israeli cities? Do you think they will actually go silent?

Peace is only going to come when all sides quit, respect their neighbors, their neighbors right to exist. respect each others religion and move on. Thats when peace comes.

Hamas has not shown themselves capable of that as of yet.

The question is....Has the Palestinian people recognized that Hamas has not shown itself capable of that yet more or less the question of when they finally do recognize that Hamas is as much itself the cause of the majority of their problems what will they do about it come elections?

In other words, Dont have half of your governement controlled by a known terrorist organization and at the very same time expect the people that they actually attack to give consession to the other half of the legitimate government with stories of poverty and misery and who more then likely do wish peace.

You might insult their intelligence ":just a little".

Heres a thought...NEWSFLASH....Vote Hamas out and their might be a real true Peace!

[Goatboy]

First off... My statements are not a matter of religion nor based upon it.

Fair enough

And the Palestinians blame the Israeli's when even Egypt has them blockaded as well?

I wonder why it is they dont blame the Egyptians?

Egypt turning a blind eye to countless tunnels straddling the border (which Gaza depends on for everything from KFC to used tires) isn't what I call a blockade. Besides, Israel's the one controlling Gaza's airspace, it's sea zone, and 95% of it's border. But there's an even bigger reason: The entire Sinai peninsula contains only 500,000 people in an area far larger than Israel, and much of them closer to the Suez I'd imagine. The Sinai simply isn't developed enough to provide enough local economic activity to support crowded Gaza (with nearly 2 million people).

I'll grant you that they're not exactly ecstatic about Egyptian policy as it pertains to Gaza, but meaningful engagement is pending, including an initiative to connect Gaza to Egypt's power grid.

You do notice with those blockades how quiet Gaza has been lately? No headlines, no rocket attacks.

Both sides have quieted down. Anyway, the Palestinians aren't rabid vermin, who bite everything in sight, every minute of the day. The lack of rocket attacks is partly related to the lack of Israeli drone assassinations. But I don't think there's "peace". Just a slow simmering anger. If the Kerry brokered peace talks currently under way (another reason for a quieting down) break down though, then there's a greater chance for violence -- maybe even another intifada.

Just how the UN can recognize this bunch as a "Palestinian" anything? When half seek true Peace and the other half under Hamas prefer rockets and attacks on the Israeli's instead of coming to the table with a legitimate Peace plan and real Peace.

The UN did recognize the Palestinians as a nation, as existing on the land they occupied in 1967. The West Bank isn't responsible for Gaza. If there's a peace plan in the West Bank, then I can guarantee Gaza will quiet down. The Gazans consider Israeli repression in the West Bank as an attack on themselves also, so why wouldn't they quiet down? And if it doesn't it's irrelevant. Opening up Gaza to the West Bank will of course be an essential ingredient. Israel, if it so chooses, can build all the walls it wants on it's 1967 border with the West Bank to protect itself.



note: although it's hard for me to know which comments you're responding to, I appreciate the engagement

[Parihaka]

And how precisely is Israel's continual subjugation, and illegal encroachment of the West Bank, from which ZERO rockets have been fired in years, justified, except by paranoia? Ripping away their civil rights because of some faint connection to Hamas and Hezbullah?

The West Bank isn't responsible for Gaza.

Abbas & Fatah insist they are responsible for Gaza and reject outright any negotiation that doesn't include it.

[Dreadnought]

Egypt turning a blind eye to countless tunnels straddling the border (which Gaza depends on for everything from KFC to used tires) isn't what I call a blockade. Besides, Israel's the one controlling Gaza's airspace, it's sea zone, and 95% of it's border. But there's an even bigger reason: The entire Sinai peninsula contains only 500,000 people in an area far larger than Israel, and much of them closer to the Suez I'd imagine. The Sinai simply isn't developed enough to provide enough local economic activity to support crowded Gaza (with nearly 2 million people).

Both sides have quieted down. Anyway, the Palestinians aren't rabid vermin, who bite everything in sight, every minute of the day. The lack of rocket attacks is partly related to the lack of Israeli drone assassinations. But I don't think there's "peace". Just a slow simmering anger. If the Kerry brokered peace talks currently under way (another reason for a quieting down) break down though, then there's a greater chance for violence -- maybe even another intifada.


I'll grant you that they're not exactly ecstatic about Egyptian policy as it pertains to Gaza, but meaningful engagement is pending, including an initiative to connect Gaza to Egypt's power grid.

If you have noticed, Egypt has been flooding the tunnels that smuggle goods, weapons etc. And with Egypt having the troubles they are having right now they may find it hard pressed for weapons to be smuggled while the extremeists are no doubt stemming the flow of weapons for their own use.

The Syrian conflict that has bidded Assad and Hezbollah along with Iran against Hamas has somewhat effectivly cut them off as well from funding and weapons.

Heres the thing, Egypt's economy has faultered, they have realized this. They wish to improve on this and the only way of doing so is removing the problem. They are beginning to move in that direction. Tourism in Egypt is a main stay and one that has defaulted as well. With calming, they wish to return it to what it once was.

People wont come if its embroiled with Gaza and the extrememists fighting the Egyptian government and IMO that is why they have taken the stand that they have taken.

The people realize they dont want to live in poverty while others live high on the horse.

Sadat tried to change all of that by making peace with Israel long ago after a few unsucessful scirmishes. He knew Egypts economy would never get better without Peace no matter what he offered the masses to try to stem the losses. He pursed a peace and went right to the Israelis doorstep and was accepted.

Like I mentioned above he paid for it with his life. There are factions so deeply rooted in hatred for other rights to exist and their religions that have now forced the hand of the majority of the people. The people have grown tired of a stagnant economy and poverty. That is why the Muslim brotherhood cannot foster the amount of protesters it wants to fill the streets and reinsert Morsi.They have tens of thousands while the people that helped remove Morsi had millions and the military saw that and moved on it.

In order to broker Peace and move on, Hamas must drop the "idiot terrorist" act and realize that they primarily are the hold up in all of this.

No one will make peace with someone that constantly attacks them and then seeks to move in next door only to be closer if they wish to continue their attacks.

Israel is not that stupid.

The reasons why Israel continues to build in the West Bank is to force the Palestinian people to realize that Israel will not except Hamas closer to the Israeli cities and for the Palestinian people headed by Abbas to get Hamas out of governement and to recognize that a majority of nations declared them as terrorists. Either that or live with the Israeli buffer zone being created by the settlements and the ones they plan if no Peace exists. All the while that buffer zone gets larger while no peace exists.

The bottom line is if the Palestinian people we to move against Hamas and remove them from government, IMO, they would find peace with the Israelis much faster. That and you would also break the Iranian influence that supplies them funding and weapons. This link has already been damaged via the Syrian conflict however not severed.
It needs to be severed outright.

Everyone wants to see Peace except those that stoke racial and religious hatred. Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and others that dont want this because their "influence" will be broken and those people that do this are fighting hard to see that doesnt happen thus they loose their influence and standing.

As I mentioned before in a prior thread, It is my sincerest hope that all of the Iranian interference (Funding, Weapons, Mercenaries) in Syria when all this is over follows them right back to Iran. Let all of those religious extremeists organizations that they attacked through their proxies and mercenaries follow them back to Iran so that she may reap exactly what she sows.

With any luck, it would turn Iran into what they helped turn Syria into right now.

And who knows, maybe an overthrow of the Assaholla and his minions might take place as well. Wishful thinking probably, but then again, anything is possible.

[Goatboy]

[B]
If you have noticed, Egypt has been flooding the tunnels that smuggle goods, weapons etc. And with Egypt having the troubles they are having right now they may find it hard pressed for weapons to be smuggled while the extremeists are no doubt stemming the flow of weapons for their own use.

Hundreds of tunnels have been constructed between Gaza and Egypt, some closed, but scores and scores remain open. Hundreds/thousands of people on the Egyptian side actively participate in this "smuggling" (which is mainly the transportation/trading of merchandise). I doubt any tunnels straddle the massively more lengthy Gazan/Israeli border. We know of none. This points to one thing: Egyptian complicity for Palestinian/Gaza tunnels.

[B]
People wont come if its embroiled with Gaza and the extrememists fighting the Egyptian government and IMO that is why they have taken the stand that they have taken.

The majority of interaction and trading between Egyptians and Palestinians on the Gaza border is peaceful, lawful and respectful. It's just commerce for the most part. It's in Egypt's and Gaza's interest to keep it that way, and it's been doing so very successfully. This has to be the case given the huge quantity and diversity of stuff traversing under the border. The idea that the majority of the nearly 2 million Gazans are criminal extremists is false. Similar to Compton or Watts in Los Angeles. Gangsters and idiots are apparent, but for the most part it's families -- people just living their lives. Of course those with guns carry a lot of weight.

[B]
The people realize they dont want to live in poverty while others live high on the horse.

Which is one reason Palestinians in the West Bank are so pissed; the massively unequal distribution of resources between Jewish settlers and Palestinians. -- leaving out Israel proper for the moment.

[B]
Sadat tried to change all of that by making peace with Israel long ago after a few unsucessful scirmishes. He knew Egypts economy would never get better without Peace no matter what he offered the masses to try to stem the losses. He pursed a peace and went right to the Israelis doorstep and was accepted.

Israel needed peace too. It could ill afford a hostile Egypt on its southern borders. It knew Egypt would conduct endless "attrition wars" with Israel, crippling its economy. America would have twisted Israel's arm till it screamed (behind closed doors), if that's what it took for it to make peace with Egypt. No way America would let Egypt run into the waiting arms of the Soviet Union again.

[B]
In order to broker Peace and move on, Hamas must drop the "idiot terrorist" act and realize that they primarily are the hold up in all of this.

No one will make peace with someone that constantly attacks them and then seeks to move in next door only to be closer if they wish to continue their attacks.

Israel is not that stupid.

The West Bank has proven itself a reasonable partner for peace this past decade. What has it gotten in return? The constant shrinking of their land into smaller and less contiguous "reservations", collective punishment, unequal resource distribution, a 5% per year increase in settler population (natural rabbit increase), a failure to prosecute Jewish settlers, especially religious and Zionist zealots, for crimes, etc etc.

[B]
The reasons why Israel continues to build in the West Bank is to force the Palestinian people to realize that Israel will not except Hamas closer to the Israeli cities and for the Palestinian people headed by Abbas to get Hamas out of governement and to recognize that a majority of nations declared them as terrorists. Either that or live with the Israeli buffer zone being created by the settlements and the ones they plan if no Peace exists. All the while that buffer zone gets larger while no peace exists.

"Forcing the Palestinians" to comply by stealing their land is going to result in nothing more than endless conflict, and increasing repercussions against Israel. It's not Israel's land to build on besides, and doing so is a crime, a violation of many Geneva Convention protocols, international law and common human dignity. Israel can thank its lucky stars that there hasn't been a 3rd intifada in the West Bank. Perhaps it's because the Palestinians have other ways to cajole Israel back onto the bargaining table: The EU being fed up with Israeli settler activity and banning all funding in any Israeli activity beyond the 1967 border. That Palestine can legally refer Israel to the ICC now, a weapon it only recently acquired when became a sovereign nation in the eyes of the UN. Finally, the United States has had it with peace talk intransigence. Kerry did more than lightly "suggest" to Israel that it go back the negotiating table this week (Abbas needed less cajoling), he essentially demanded Israel do so. Giving the talks a 9 month window before they're considered "expired" was a stroke of genius on his part I might add. It ensures the time/ability to overcome obstacles that weren't possible in a one-off meeting between Abbas and Netanyahu.



Note: I'm looking forward to watching "The Gatekeepers" with my father, his Jewish girlfriend and my wife this weekend. I understand it's as eye opening as "5 broken cameras" was.

[Dreadnought]

Hundreds of tunnels have been constructed between Gaza and Egypt, some closed, but scores and scores remain open. Hundreds/thousands of people on the Egyptian side actively participate in this "smuggling" (which is mainly the transportation/trading of merchandise). I doubt any tunnels straddle the massively more lengthy Gazan/Israeli border. We know of none. This points to one thing: Egyptian complicity for Palestinian/Gaza tunnels.




The majority of interaction and trading between Egyptians and Palestinians on the Gaza border is peaceful, lawful and respectful. It's just commerce for the most part. It's in Egypt's and Gaza's interest to keep it that way, and it's been doing so very successfully. This has to be the case given the huge quantity and diversity of stuff traversing under the border. The idea that the majority of the nearly 2 million Gazans are criminal extremists is false. Similar to Compton or Watts in Los Angeles. Gangsters and idiots are apparent, but for the most part it's families -- people just living their lives. Of course those with guns carry a lot of weight.



Which is one reason Palestinians in the West Bank are so pissed; the massively unequal distribution of resources between Jewish settlers and Palestinians. -- leaving out Israel proper for the moment.



Israel needed peace too. It could ill afford a hostile Egypt on its southern borders. It knew Egypt would conduct endless "attrition wars" with Israel, crippling its economy. America would have twisted Israel's arm till it screamed (behind closed doors), if that's what it took for it to make peace with Egypt. No way America would let Egypt run into the waiting arms of the Soviet Union again.





The West Bank has proven itself a reasonable partner for peace this past decade. What has it gotten in return? The constant shrinking of their land into smaller and less contiguous "reservations", collective punishment, unequal resource distribution, a 5% per year increase in settler population (natural rabbit increase), a failure to prosecute Jewish settlers, especially religious and Zionist zealots, for crimes, etc etc.




"Forcing the Palestinians" to comply by stealing their land is going to result in nothing more than endless conflict, and increasing repercussions against Israel. It's not Israel's land to build on besides, and doing so is a crime, a violation of many Geneva Convention protocols, international law and common human dignity. Israel can thank its lucky stars that there hasn't been a 3rd intifada in the West Bank. Perhaps it's because the Palestinians have other ways to cajole Israel back onto the bargaining table: The EU being fed up with Israeli settler activity and banning all funding in any Israeli activity beyond the 1967 border. That Palestine can legally refer Israel to the ICC now, a weapon it only recently acquired when became a sovereign nation in the eyes of the UN. Finally, the United States has had it with peace talk intransigence. Kerry did more than lightly "suggest" to Israel that it go back the negotiating table this week (Abbas needed less cajoling), he essentially demanded Israel do so. Giving the talks a 9 month window before their considered "expired" was a stroke of genius on his part I might add. It ensures the time/ability to overcome obstacles that weren't possible in a one-off meeting between Abbas and Netanyahu.



Note: I'm looking forward to watching "The Gatekeepers" with my father, his Jewish girlfriend and my wife this weekend. I understand it's as eye opening as "5 broken cameras" was.

*In the end though it is the Israeli's that have to accept any results of the negociations.

The Allied Powers of WWI seeded the land to the Israeli's and that is something John Kerry cannot change no matter how much he might imply that he can.

Can he and Obama brow beat the Israeli's in the media?

Sure, they can but you also have to remember that they want to keep their jobs as well and many here in the US tend to back the Israeli's. Especially when it comes to them defending themselves against rocket attacks etc.

The Israeli's want more then a 4-5 year Peace plan. As they stated at the UN they dont want to have to do this again in 5 years time. This has been one of the sticking points and that points to Hamas and Abbas BOTH agreeing to it. Since one cannot seem to control the other nor agree it would seem in Israels better interest not to sign anything until those two alone can find common ground.

Kerry can only do so much to try to curtail the West Bank housing expansions. He nor Obama can stop them if thats what the Israeli's choose to do.

But at the very same time, "If" the Israeli's feel they are giving too much and Abbas/Hamas not giving enough they may choose not to sign this Peace agreement. Then all they have to do is wait Kerry out. Obama and his cabinet only have 4 years and less and then the entire Presidency and cabinet will end in 2017.

Alot of expansion can happen over the next 4 years in the West Bank and pending the new US Administration in 2017 they may side with the Israeli's and state that Abbas/Hamas must give more concessions instead. Could mean land, could mean form a more impartial governement and then come talk to us.

All the while the clock ticks and politics drives.

Basically, the US can influence the Israelis but so much. In the end the Israeli's can choose either something they feel threatened with or just wait out the curret Administation and try again with a new Administration. It would cost them nothing and lets also remember that the Israeli Prime Minister is going to want to keep his job (keeping the Israeli people happy) too.

As you can see, the Israeli's have time on their side and can choose wether or not to agree to a Peace settlement.

Question is can Hamas and Abbas absorb another 4 years of blockade and stagnit economy before their own people go head hunting for the lot of them.

[Goatboy]

Unless this latest peace initiative has real results -- and I'm not holding my breath -- I'll just cross my fingers ;)

[Dreadnought]

Unless this latest peace initiative has real results -- and I'm not holding my breath -- I'll just cross my fingers ;)

That makes two of us.

[Hitman817]

Lol, why cant you Jews send female spies, like Russians. :pop:

[Minskaya]

Lol, why cant you Jews send female spies, like Russians. :pop:

Not quite as esoteric as a master spy pigeon, but certainly doable. 20% of the Israeli population is Russian ;)

[Officer of Engineers]

Lol, why cant you Jews send female spies, like Russians. :pop:

Well you could eat the pigeon ... never mind.