Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst 123456
Results 76 to 81 of 81

Thread: LTC Bob Batemen's EXCELLENT series on Gettysburg in Esquire

  1. #76
    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
    Join Date
    15 Apr 07
    Location
    Corpus Christi, Texas
    Posts
    11,201
    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    The earlier the civil war comes, the better the chances of the south are for a win. Given the technology of 1860, the 1860's were probably the last decade where the South had something akin to a real chance to win. After that demographics doomed any military option. Had the south broke away in 1840 she might very well have won.
    That's a modern-day analysis and none too solid. The North had vastly more depth on its bench than the South.

    Close to your point, there was a feeling in the South that the Northern states would just let them go, and indeed many in the North felt that way. But there were also wise men in the South who believed the Confederation would not last on its own and predicted things would turn out as they did. Unfortunately, their voices were drowned out by the hotheads and the romantics.

    Similarly, in the North, wiser heads understood the destiny of the Union was at stake, as was the concept of self-government.
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

  2. #77
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,368
    Heck the Union was so constrained by the drain on resources of the ACW that The Homestead Act was passed in 1862...a drain on manpower just when me were needed.

    A good friend of mine who is a business professor summed it up best. The Federal government fought the ACW with one arm tied behind its back.

    With 2 and 3 year enlistments, the Homestead Act, purchase of replacements, etc the Union left a ton of resources on the table.
    “We had been hopelessly labouring to plough waste lands; to make nationality grow in a place full of the certainty of God… Among the tribes our creed could be only like the desert grass – a beautiful swift seeming of spring; which, after a day’s heat, fell dusty.”
    ― T.E. Lawrence, Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph

  3. #78
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,550
    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    That's a modern-day analysis and none too solid. The North had vastly more depth on its bench than the South.
    Not in 1840 it didn't. The North's industry was still by and large undeveloped and concentrated primarily in textiles not foundries. Its population in 1840 was 7 million vs 3 million a bit better than 2:1. Compare this to 1860 when the North could pull 19 million against the south's 8 million. The North had reached a population tipping point where she could support large field armies in 1860. In 1840 the needs of the fields and cities would limit the size of the union armies and make the North much more causality averse.

    Close to your point, there was a feeling in the South that the Northern states would just let them go, and indeed many in the North felt that way. But there were also wise men in the South who believed the Confederation would not last on its own and predicted things would turn out as they did. Unfortunately, their voices were drowned out by the hotheads and the romantics.

    Similarly, in the North, wiser heads understood the destiny of the Union was at stake, as was the concept of self-government.

    Not disagreeing with you.

  4. #79
    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
    Join Date
    15 Apr 07
    Location
    Corpus Christi, Texas
    Posts
    11,201
    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Not in 1840 it didn't. The North's industry was still by and large undeveloped and concentrated primarily in textiles not foundries. Its population in 1840 was 7 million vs 3 million a bit better than 2:1. Compare this to 1860 when the North could pull 19 million against the south's 8 million. The North had reached a population tipping point where she could support large field armies in 1860. In 1840 the needs of the fields and cities would limit the size of the union armies and make the North much more causality averse.
    Z, you're a moving target. Now you're back to 1840. Your point that the sooner the South seceded the more successful it would be fending off Union armies would be difficult to prove. But we know that in 1832 South Carolina tried to nullify a Federal tariff law but backed down when Jackson threatened military action. Not one state joined SC. If the South wasn't ready to take on the North then, it probably wouldn't be ready for some time. Does 28 years later seem about right?


    Not disagreeing with you.
    You're negative even when agreeing.
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

  5. #80
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,550
    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    Z, you're a moving target. Now you're back to 1840. Your point that the sooner the South seceded the more successful it would be fending off Union armies would be difficult to prove. But we know that in 1832 South Carolina tried to nullify a Federal tariff law but backed down when Jackson threatened military action. Not one state joined SC. If the South wasn't ready to take on the North then, it probably wouldn't be ready for some time. Does 28 years later seem about right?
    I was looking at it from a resource perspective. No, in 1832 the rest of the South did not side with SC, but had they done so, the likely hood that the federals could have won is much reduced from what they had in 1860. As AR pointed out the federal government fought the war with one had tied behind its back.


    You're negative even when agreeing.
    Sorry. I throw ideas at the wall of intellect here, if it passes through i incorporate it, if it bounces off I throw it again to make sure, if it still bounces off I discard it.

  6. #81
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional Shek's Avatar
    Join Date
    23 Feb 05
    Location
    Krblachistan
    Posts
    11,636
    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    I was looking at it from a resource perspective. No, in 1832 the rest of the South did not side with SC, but had they done so, the likely hood that the federals could have won is much reduced from what they had in 1860. As AR pointed out the federal government fought the war with one had tied behind its back.
    I think you're correct from a resource perspective, but from a political perspective, there's no motivation for the what if. The South controlled the federal government and in 1850 with the Fugitive Slave Act, passed the most sweeping empowerment of the federal government to date in support of Southern interests. By 1860, they had forced tarriffs to their lowest levels in decades and were able to stymie the Northern agenda in the Senate. While they had lost the House to the North, they still had decades left in the Senate and through their own actions "gave up" the Presidency to the GOP. Absent splitting the Democratic Party, Buchanan most likely wins the White House and popular sovereignty maintains a balance enough in the Senate for decades to allow for Southern filibusters.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Gettysburg Festival - 150 Years
    By Minskaya in forum American Civil War
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 17 Jul 13,, 04:46
  2. Gettysburg Cyclorama Building torn down
    By Albany Rifles in forum American Civil War
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12 Mar 13,, 17:16
  3. The Gettysburg of This War
    By WaltzingMatilda in forum The Middle East and North Africa
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05 Sep 07,, 03:01
  4. Esquire: The School
    By Lunatock in forum International Economy
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 17 May 06,, 19:50
  5. Esquire interview of Osama bin laden circa 1998
    By Lunatock in forum Operation Enduring Freedom and Af-Pak
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08 Aug 04,, 18:33

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •