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Thread: The NSA

  1. #46
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    Well I didn't really want to get drawn in again but surely the point is that NSA/US Government is breaking it's own law. Not only that but our own Governments, far from protecting or complaining that what we search on Google etc being effectively traceable by an arm of the US Government without due cause, are complicit in this spying of all our online activity, contrary to the laws of most nations. Forgive me if I appear 'old fashioned' but I thought one of things that made our societies 'free' was that you were innocent until proven guilty and thus we are free to do as we wish without monitoring unless they have a reasonable cause which is accepted by a judge, or in the British case the Home or Foreign Secretary, and then you can monitor a persons 'traffic' be it emails or whatever else. Are we all potential terrorists for the US? Possibly we are but that does not give the NSA to keep data of any or all internet traffic outside it's jurisdiction and arguably it has no right to mass track 'metadata' within the US itself.

    Nor has got us far. The Russian authorities warned the US about the Boston bombers and the British security services knew who the Woolwich murderers were. Both were ignored. All this reliance on COMMINT is essentially a waste of time unless you have a lead. Collecting terabytes of metadata essentially allows you go back and check previous records once something happens or if you get a lead. To me once you have the lead then you have 'reasonable cause' and the job starts and the collection of all the metadata of innocent and guilty alike previous to that is an infringement on my liberty, contrary to law and wasteful expenditure.

  2. #47
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    Boston bombers were not ignored. There was insufficient evidence to get a warrant to keep them under surveillance.
    "The genius of you Americans is that you make no clear-cut stupid moves, only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that there may be something to them we are missing." - Gamal Abdel Nasser

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Boston bombers were not ignored. There was insufficient evidence to get a warrant to keep them under surveillance.
    Since we now know that any 'evidence' is really beside the point - that they monitor all traffic anyway having been authorised to do so by some 'secret court' - that explanation doesn't really make sense.

    The idea of a 'secret court' where the proceedings are classified by their very nature seems to me to slightly logically contradictory - a bit like trying to follow a rule subjectively in Wittgenstein's Private Language Theory. What rules does such a court have? How can anyone know if it has broken it's own rules? Could you have for example a 'miscarriage of justice' in such a court? How would anybody know? You'd have to break the rules to report what you thought was such a miscarriage of justice and thus are already guilty in the eyes of the 'secret court'. How can you appeal?... Well you wouldn't know that a case had been heard against you since to tell you that also defeats the objective so presumably appeal is irrelevant. In fact such a 'tribunal' cannot really be called a 'court' in any ordinary sense of the word; it may have 'rules' but since only its own members know them these 'rules' are effectively irrelevant. People who cannot know the 'rules' can never avoid or even try to avoid breaking any of rules.

    Sadly this is the rise of the faceless official to the power of ultimate arbiter in the name of the State/People as Hayek predicted for the USSR in 'The Road to Serfdom'. Freedom and liberty carry risks, terrorism not the least of those risks, but it is supposed to be the job of laws - or the Constitution in the US - to stop our Governments destroying our liberties. When one sees secret tribunals falsely claiming to be 'courts' and claiming to uphold secret rules one has to question if the law itself is not being subverted.

    Wittgenstein: "No course of action could be determined by a [subjective or secret] rule, because every course of action can be made out to accord with the rule. The answer was: if everything can be made out to accord with the rule, then it can also be made out to conflict with it. And there would be neither accord nor conflict here."

  4. #49
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    Read more. Computers cull a lot of data. Not all is analyzed. That still leaves in place that no law enforcement organization recognized that there was probable cause for a warrant for surveillance.

    Nothing has been reported in open sources to change that point.
    "The genius of you Americans is that you make no clear-cut stupid moves, only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that there may be something to them we are missing." - Gamal Abdel Nasser

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Read more. Computers cull a lot of data. Not all is analyzed. That still leaves in place that no law enforcement organization recognized that there was probable cause for a warrant for surveillance.

    Nothing has been reported in open sources to change that point.
    But don't you see if someone were to make 'open source' or public as normal people call it a 'gross miscarriage of justice that breaks the law/Constitution' by this secret 'court' then they are already 'guilty' in the eyes of the tribunal/secret court who's nature and rules are by the 'rules' secret...?

    It's not that all the metadata is scrutinised - it's that it can be and is collected 'just in case' you or I turn out to be baddies. Well in my view that's not on. Let me take this to normal life and assume that you are married; did you employ a private detective to watch your spouse from day 1? Sure you might do if you thought there was reasonable cause to do so but from day 1?? I think not. Why then do our Governments assume the worst of us? I thought the presumption was innocent until proven guilty and for that you first need reasonable cause to collect metadata. A public employee - as I myself am - is not the master or arbiter of any member of the public or foreign national - we are servants of the people who pay our salaries and have no 'right' to break the law.

  6. #51
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    Finally, he is flee from Hong Kong.

    Obama administration officials have been deliberately leaked the weekend said that if Hong Kong does not act quickly to arrest the person, not only damage the bilateral relations, but will also questioned rigorously to enforce the rule of law determination. After this incident, bad comments of human rights and freedoms, rule of laws, etc. in Hong Kong, from the reports from the U.S. State Department, is unavoidable, and taking action(s) to the SAR government. If the final step as Mrs Regina Ip said Hong Kong and the United States negotiation to visa-free revenge, IMHO, is surprisingly very little things to me.

    Regina Ip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In fact, Washington explicit or implicit looking for troubling SAR Government, troubling methods are numerous. How do Washington grudge this time, I believe that soon we will know.

    EDIT: Supplementary information that Mr. Snowden flee from Hong Kong without any legal document.

    http://news.yahoo.com/u-revokes-snow...173014919.html
    Last edited by Enzo Ferrari; 24 Jun 13, at 06:40.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    So my little international non American chickadees, how feel you about America spying using their global corporations as fronts to record every detail of your electronic linked lives?
    I don't have a problem at all, in the US seeing into my emails or FB pages. There is so much boring stuff that I must have been put in the, "domesticated husbands" category by now.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  8. #53
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    And the trolling continues... first the Russians, now the Chinese.

    China 'gravely concerned' by Snowden's claims of U.S. cyber attacks on China | Reuters

    "We express grave concern about the recent disclosures of the U.S. government's cyber attacks on China," Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying said in the statement. "This once again proves that China is a victim of cyber attacks."
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  9. #54
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    Do you understand what "trolling" means?

    The US is caught pants down. You little minions can stop pretending the emperor has any clothes on for a change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    And the trolling continues... first the Russians, now the Chinese.

    China 'gravely concerned' by Snowden's claims of U.S. cyber attacks on China | Reuters

    "We express grave concern about the recent disclosures of the U.S. government's cyber attacks on China," Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying said in the statement. "This once again proves that China is a victim of cyber attacks."

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdude View Post
    Do you understand what "trolling" means?
    Do you?

    The US is caught pants down. You little minions can stop pretending the emperor has any clothes on for a change.
    China doesn't have similar program?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo Ferrari View Post
    EDIT: Supplementary information that Mr. Snowden flee from Hong Kong without any legal document.U.S. revokes Snowden's passport: official source
    The papers this morning reported that he was issued Ecuadorian travel documents, but not a full passport.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Do you?


    China doesn't have similar program?
    I don't blame you minions living outside of the Empire yet worry so much about the Empire's image. Let me walk you through what happened last month inside the Empire well you minions busy fighting in the provinces (for the empire, and we salute you, no dough for you though).

    The US accused China of cyber attacks. The Emperor made it a big deal during the meeting with China's president. 2 days later, Snowden happened. During an interview with SCMP, Snowden said US not only attacks China, but also HK, HK's universities and governments.

    Pants down, man down.

    Empire is pissed, but caught shirtless nevertheless in front of the world. Only oblivious to little minions around the world.

  13. #58
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    So, you not only know what trolling is but you are one as well. Thanks for proving it. Again.

    Still haven't answered my question about your opinion if China doesn't have such a program.

    To make this really simple to you, I don't care about US image. Am not US citizen nor resident, so it doesn't affect me in any shape or form if USG looks really stupid or really smart.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  14. #59
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    that's why you are a minion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    So, you not only know what trolling is but you are one as well. Thanks for proving it. Again.

    Still haven't answered my question about your opinion if China doesn't have such a program.

    To make this really simple to you, I don't care about US image. Am not US citizen nor resident, so it doesn't affect me in any shape or form if USG looks really stupid or really smart.

  15. #60
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    I am torn with the subject. First of all, Nixon was impeached for wire-tapping an office, whereas our government is tapping the entire country, and obviously the entire world, which to me is a severe imbalance.

    On the other hand, I understand something of sorts is needed to obstruct terrorists attacks within our country, but how far this should go, I am not sure. I do know that attacks have been avoided due to the nature of intercepting certain communications.

    Then you have the situation of China and the cyberattacks cdude mentioned, then it is revealed the US has been doing the same thing, and it seems in a broader nature. Do these countries have some limited right to Snowden to learn the critical data the US intercepted about them? Does the US have a right to make demands upon these countries for extradition, when the US was breaking international law?

    Not sure about any of that, but I am confused as hell about it as to who is right and/or wrong.

    The only thing I do know is that I don't like a two-headed coin, and that is what this situation seems to be.

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