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Thread: Documentary = Afghanistan: The Price of Revenge

  1. #61
    Officer of Engineers
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    The objetive of the war was to destroy Al Qaeda. The occupation was an afterthought.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    What was the goal of the war and occupation of Afghanistan?
    Seriously?

    Well we weren't doing anything that week and decided it'd be fun to vacation in the Graveyard of Empires.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  3. #63
    Senior Contributor Agnostic Muslim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Seriously?

    Well we weren't doing anything that week and decided it'd be fun to vacation in the Graveyard of Empires.
    Seriously, without an answer (the US answer) to that question we'll just go around in circles.

    OoE argues that the objective was to 'destroy Al Qaeda', in which case a full fledged war and invasion was a very poor approach to the issue given the nature of the threat.
    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    I am sorry, but I still don't understand - you quoted this line of mine in your initial response:

    "I adjusted my figures - are you going to move on now and address the actual argument of how flawed the US decision to wage war and invade Afghanistan was or keep trying to hide behind casualty figures?"

    I don't understand the context of your comment about 'doubts and cultural differences' in terms of my comment above.
    You say there was alternative approach/response after CONUS was under attack. I can't see it. From 2001 perspective that is.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    Seriously, without an answer (the US answer) to that question we'll just go around in circles.

    OoE argues that the objective was to 'destroy Al Qaeda', in which case a full fledged war and invasion was a very poor approach to the issue given the nature of the threat.
    Given the Taliban willingness to give safe-haven to terrorists who had publicly (years before 9/11) and their unwillingness to turn him over, I'd say part of destroying al-Qa'ida was destroying their "base".

    Otherwise you're simply asking for them or another group to pop up again from the same nest.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Given the Taliban willingness to give safe-haven to terrorists who had publicly (years before 9/11) and their unwillingness to turn him over, I'd say part of destroying al-Qa'ida was destroying their "base".

    Otherwise you're simply asking for them or another group to pop up again from the same nest.
    Which brings us nicely back to

    1. Deliver to the US all al-Qaeda leaders in Afghanistan
    2. Release all imprisoned foreign nationals
    3. Protect foreign journalists, diplomats and aid workers
    4. Close immediately every terrorist training camp, and hand over every terrorist and their supporters
    5. Give the United States full access to terrorist training camps for inspection

    not unreasonable demands, given the circumstances
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility

    Gottfried Leibniz

  7. #67
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    One thing I have to agree with AM. Afghanistan was the wrong country US invaded after 9/11

    The country should have been Pakistan.

    Luckily for Pakistan, Mushraff saved the trip to stone age and the US went just for the backyard, not the house.

    If Taliban was an independent entity, they would have made a deal with US and knocked off OBL themselves.

    Taliban was prepared to loose power in Afghanistan over OBL? Was he bigger than Mullah omar?

    Needless to say OBL was important to Pakistan Army, as they saw this as the perfect plan to milk US. If Taliban had handed over OBL, would have Pakistan received the billions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    The violence being referred to started after the ISAF invasion, and the spillover was the result of a poorly planned war, so who else would you like to blame?

    The spill over if you are referring to is TTP, then where was TTP before 2003? for that matter before 2005?

    TTP came in to force after the Lal Masjid episode. How come the Haqqani groups never targets Pakistan, after all Pakistan is suppose to the ally of US?

    Let us stop this nonsense about "effects on the region". US invasion was the best thing to happen to Pakistan in the past two decades. Pakistan was under sanction and it is the country which has profited the most .
    2-3 blliion dollars every year, IMF loan waving, "Coalition support fund", US weapons etc etc
    Last edited by n21; 13 Jun 13, at 22:12.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2 View Post
    I, too, found this a fascinating re-write. Naw...not true. Infuriating would be closer. Should I be surprised that this trash was posted by Notorious Eagle?
    Fox News for you than

    Quote Originally Posted by n21 View Post
    One thing I have to agree with AM. Afghanistan was the wrong country US invaded after 9/11

    The country should have been Pakistan.

    Luckily for Pakistan, Mushraff saved the trip to stone age and the US went just for the backyard, not the house.

    If Taliban was an independent entity, they would have made a deal with US and knocked off OBL themselves.

    Taliban was prepared to loose power in Afghanistan over OBL? Was he bigger than Mullah omar?

    Needless to say OBL was important to Pakistan Army, as they saw this as the perfect plan to milk US. If Taliban had handed over OBL, would have Pakistan received the billions?
    Indeed, Pakistan received around $20 billion in aid from the US but the damage to the economy and infrastructure as a whole after joining WOT has been around $80 billion. Thus, Pakistan is in a deficit of $60 billion with more than 40 000 civilians killed and 5000 dead soldiers. The only thing this war has brought to Pakistan has been death and destruction. $20 billion is just pocket change compared to the damage Pakistan has suffered.

    Quote Originally Posted by n21 View Post
    The spill over if you are referring to is TTP, then where was TTP before 2003? for that matter before 2005?

    TTP came in to force after the Lal Masjid episode. How come the Haqqani groups never targets Pakistan, after all Pakistan is suppose to the ally of US?

    Let us stop this nonsense about "effects on the region". US invasion was the best thing to happen to Pakistan in the past two decades. Pakistan was under sanction and it is the country which has profited the most .
    2-3 blliion dollars every year, IMF loan waving, "Coalition support fund", US weapons etc etc
    $2-3 billion of aid for an economy of $200 billion is like 1% of the total economy . On the other hand the Economy of Pakistan suffers losses annually of around $7-8 billion, so please explain me how has this war been the best thing for Pakistan?
    Last edited by notorious_eagle; 13 Jun 13, at 23:48.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    Seriously, without an answer (the US answer) to that question we'll just go around in circles.

    OoE argues that the objective was to 'destroy Al Qaeda', in which case a full fledged war and invasion was a very poor approach to the issue given the nature of the threat.
    We were there to destroy the enemy and her allies and we've done so. The "what next" caught us off guard. The Northern Alliance was never going to be a proper government and we tried to invent one out of thin air, dragging Karzai with zero street creds in Afghanistan to do the job. There was simply no other acceptable choice available.

    Negotiation with the Taliban was a no go from the start. Anyone who even suggests it is a Taliban apologist.

  11. #71
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notorious_eagle View Post
    Indeed, Pakistan received around $20 billion in aid from the US but the damage to the economy and infrastructure as a whole after joining WOT has been around $80 billion. Thus, Pakistan is in a deficit of $60 billion with more than 40 000 civilians killed and 5000 dead soldiers. The only thing this war has brought to Pakistan has been death and destruction. $20 billion is just pocket change compared to the damage Pakistan has suffered.
    Does this mean the Pak army has sidelined itself in the eyes of your public ?

    Was thinking the other day the best thing the Pak army can do is not make too much noise right now, given all the protests going on in the muslim world.

    Democratic and peaceful transition of power is the right thing to do.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by notorious_eagle View Post
    Indeed, Pakistan received around $20 billion in aid from the US but the damage to the economy and infrastructure as a whole after joining WOT has been around $80 billion. Thus, Pakistan is in a deficit of $60 billion with more than 40 000 civilians killed and 5000 dead soldiers. The only thing this war has brought to Pakistan has been death and destruction. $20 billion is just pocket change compared to the damage Pakistan has suffered.

    $2-3 billion of aid for an economy of $200 billion is like 1% of the total economy . On the other hand the Economy of Pakistan suffers losses annually of around $7-8 billion, so please explain me how has this war been the best thing for Pakistan?
    Attachment 33141
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  13. #73
    Senior Contributor Agnostic Muslim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post

    Negotiation with the Taliban was a no go from the start. Anyone who even suggests it is a Taliban apologist.
    That would make the US, Afghan and many European governments 'Taliban apologists' ...

    Negotiations were the best approach at the time and that approach should have been exhausted before war.
    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
    https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

  14. #74
    Senior Contributor Agnostic Muslim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n21 View Post
    One thing I have to agree with AM. Afghanistan was the wrong country US invaded after 9/11

    The country should have been Pakistan.
    Indian whining about the US doing that which they (India) cannot accomplish is nothing new ...
    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
    https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

  15. #75
    Military Professional Deltacamelately's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    What was the goal of the war and occupation of Afghanistan?
    My Goodness. Are you really that naÔve?

    What do you think the Indian public wanted after Mumbai? That the American leaders had the stomach and resources for going to war and their Indian counterparts didn't, doesn't change the fact, that responding with war to such attacks on soft civilian targets, is a very legit military goal.
    Last edited by Deltacamelately; 14 Jun 13, at 14:35.
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