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Thread: Documentary = Afghanistan: The Price of Revenge

  1. #31
    Officer of Engineers
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    The Soviets DID NOT UNLEASHED the hounds in Afghanistan. The last Soviet who had the stomach for that was Joseph Stalin and Afghanistan would have been a cakewalk for the likes of him.

  2. #32
    Senior Contributor Agnostic Muslim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    The Soviets DID NOT UNLEASHED the hounds in Afghanistan. The last Soviet who had the stomach for that was Joseph Stalin and Afghanistan would have been a cakewalk for the likes of him.
    Oh, so we are back to perpetrating genocide as a 'viable COIN policy' are we?
    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
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  3. #33
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    No, but doing what Sri Lanka did may have helped.

  4. #34
    Officer of Engineers
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    It's going to happen whether we like it or not. The Afghans will do it themselves. Ironically, the only thing saving the Taliban is NATO and we're leaving.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    The combined death toll in Afghanistan and Pakistan appears to be between 70,000 to 100,000, depending on the source. Do you find 'tens of thousands of dead civilians' to be less 'grisly' and more 'acceptable'?
    Oh that's nice! You casually transfer all blame for dead Pakistani civilians onto ISAF as well. Not a word against your army and intelligence agencies who welcomed the fleeing talibunnies and their AQ buddies with open arms during the early days of the war.

    And yes, even if we accept these numbers you mention as correct, you have just proved your claim of "hundreds of thousands" of dead civilians as nothing more than hyperbole.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 12 Jun 13, at 17:57.

  6. #36
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chogy View Post
    It is sound only insofar as the nation being built actually desires (or at least accepts) what the "conquerors" offer in terms of a sociopolitical construct.

    If the USSR conquered Sweden, obliterating Sweden's infrastructure in the process, and then attempted to "rebuild" Sweden into yet another satellite State with a die-hard communist puppet at the helm, there'd be resistance.

    The Afghanis apparently do not want what is being offered. And most importantly, it is not the job of the military to build, and arguably, it is not their job to police, although the latter has been accomplished in post WW2 Axis nations. It is the job of the military to destroy, or threaten to do so.

    If the Afghanis want to shed themselves of the Taliban rule and eject foreign fighters, then let their young men stand and take up arms. These we'll supply. Otherwise, the mission should have been to gut AQ and the Taliban as necessary, and then simply exit stage left. A not so subtle warning about what happens if U.S. or Allies' assets are attacked in such a manner as they were on 9/11.
    The sad part is the Afghans do want to shed the Taliban rule.And they are willing to stand up and take arms.But not for the sake of profiteers or corrupt ''leaders'',but for themselves.The sadder part is that only a few islands of common sense exist,wherever the SOF were allowed to work their magic.It was winnable as late 2010,IMO,if our bureaucracy were to dissapear,Karzai ousted,the warlords ''suicided'',ANP dismantled.Basically start from the scratch and from the bottom up.Nation building as it it's understood now,is BS.You don't build anything with a bunch of overpaid paper pushers and 100000 FOBbits.You walk the land,speak their language,respect their customs,change those unsavory traditions one man at a time,fight alongside them,build gradually some infrastructure,some economy,etc...
    As it is now,the war is not even face saving.Is just a racket,to siphon some more money,before it's over.

    An NCO returned home a few weeks ago.He was in US for a year,for treatment,after losing both legs and an arm.It adds to the thousands of families that lost somebody or are tormented by the presence of such human ruins.who go and tell these people it was worth it?
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  7. #37
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    I don't know how to put it, but...

    Even if we combine them, there are not 100,000 deaths.

    In Afghanistan alone, by your own source:
    Crawford, Boston University, "Civilian Death and Injury in Afghanistan, 2001-2011" [link removed since it says "page not found"]
    Total: 30,400 to 45,600 killed, incl....
    Afghan soldiers, police, insurgents: 15,000 to 28,000 killed
    Civilians: 12,500 to 14,700 killed

    If you split that in 10 years...

    I don't want to sound like a ruthless tard, but it's way of hundredS of thousands, which was my initial question.

    The point is that the Taliban paid a much lower price than that paid by others in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and the costs continue to accumulate. There was an alternative to war and invasion that was not explored at the time, and it would appear that a lot of people have still not absorbed the lessons from the failures of the Afghan invasion, choosing instead to offer canards like 'we would have been fine if NATO had the freedom to kill more people with abandon' ...
    From US perspective there was no alternative. The message was sent. "Mess with us, and we will find you. Even in your caves, or under the rocks."
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  8. #38
    Senior Contributor Agnostic Muslim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    No, but doing what Sri Lanka did may have helped.
    If Afghanistan was an island, an ethnic group in the majority opposed the Taliban and the effort to replicate the Sri Lankan government's tactics/policies against the LTTE was an indigenous one led by said 'majority ethnic group'.
    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
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  9. #39
    Senior Contributor Agnostic Muslim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    And yes, even if we accept these numbers you mention as correct, you have just proved your claim of "hundreds of thousands" of dead civilians as nothing more than hyperbole.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    I don't know how to put it, but...

    I don't want to sound like a ruthless tard, but it's way of hundredS of thousands, which was my initial question.
    Did both of you miss this part of my previous post addressed to TopHatter?

    "The combined death toll in Afghanistan and Pakistan appears to be between 70,000 to 100,000, depending on the source. Do you find 'tens of thousands of dead civilians' to be less 'grisly' and more 'acceptable'?
    From US perspective there was no alternative. The message was sent. "Mess with us, and we will find you. Even in your caves, or under the rocks."
    The message obviously didn't sink in, and in the end the US ended up punishing 'tens of thousands' who had nothing to do with Al Qaeda (ignoring the indirect impact on millions in the region).
    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
    https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

  10. #40
    Senior Contributor Agnostic Muslim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    It's going to happen whether we like it or not. The Afghans will do it themselves. Ironically, the only thing saving the Taliban is NATO and we're leaving.
    I'll ask again, are you supporting genocide as a viable COIN policy and suggesting that NATO should have engaged in genocide to 'Win' in Afghanistan?
    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
    https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

  11. #41
    Senior Contributor Agnostic Muslim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chogy View Post
    It is sound only insofar as the nation being built actually desires (or at least accepts) what the "conquerors" offer in terms of a sociopolitical construct.

    If the USSR conquered Sweden, obliterating Sweden's infrastructure in the process, and then attempted to "rebuild" Sweden into yet another satellite State with a die-hard communist puppet at the helm, there'd be resistance.

    The Afghanis apparently do not want what is being offered. And most importantly, it is not the job of the military to build, and arguably, it is not their job to police, although the latter has been accomplished in post WW2 Axis nations. It is the job of the military to destroy, or threaten to do so.

    If the Afghanis want to shed themselves of the Taliban rule and eject foreign fighters, then let their young men stand and take up arms. These we'll supply. Otherwise, the mission should have been to gut AQ and the Taliban as necessary, and then simply exit stage left. A not so subtle warning about what happens if U.S. or Allies' assets are attacked in such a manner as they were on 9/11.
    I completely agree that 'successful nation building' requires the 'nation being built' to actually desire it and participate in it wholeheartedly - I am not contesting the 'how' of nation building, rather arguing that the theory behind 'nation building' is sound. The rush to war in Afghanistan in 2001 prevented a proper analysis of the 'how' and 'if' of nation building in Afghanistan post invasion and occupation and created a much bigger mess.
    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
    https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

  12. #42
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    Did both of you miss this part of my previous post addressed to TopHatter?

    "The combined death toll in Afghanistan and Pakistan appears to be between 70,000 to 100,000, depending on the source. Do you find 'tens of thousands of dead civilians' to be less 'grisly' and more 'acceptable'?
    So you turn to a next point when your numbers are repelled.
    OK, I will bite it. Not 1 civilian death is acceptable to me personally. However, civilians die whenever there is an armed conflict around them. Guess what, those same civilians tolerated Talibans who put them in that position. Otherwise, they would've overthrown them. Please don't try to twist this around. Deal?

    The message obviously didn't sink in, and in the end the US ended up punishing 'tens of thousands' who had nothing to do with Al Qaeda (ignoring the indirect impact on millions in the region).
    Yep, US should have just say, "Oh well, 2 buildings more or less".
    As for "tens of thousands" you just don't give up. Your own source shows 14-17k civilians dead in A-stan. And see above what I have said above about innocents.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  13. #43
    Senior Contributor Agnostic Muslim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    So you turn to a next point when your numbers are repelled.
    OK, I will bite it. Not 1 civilian death is acceptable to me personally. However, civilians die whenever there is an armed conflict around them.
    The point is that human and economic cost of the US invasion, with very little to show for, clearly illustrates how flawed the policy of rushing into war, invading and occupying Afghanistan was.
    Yep, US should have just say, "Oh well, 2 buildings more or less".
    No, the US should have used UNSC support for military action in Afghanistan as a negotiating tool to have AQ leaders extradited and/or put on trial in some mutually acceptable country and used 'sticks and carrots' with the Taliban regime to stabilize the country long term.
    As for "tens of thousands" you just don't give up. Your own source shows 14-17k civilians dead in A-stan. And see above what I have said above about innocents.
    Tens of thousands dead in Afghanistan and Pakistan - check the source again.
    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
    https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

  14. #44
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    So, all those are to be put on the ISAF's tap?

    Why not adding Chechnya, too?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  15. #45
    Senior Contributor Agnostic Muslim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    So, all those are to be put on the ISAF's tap?
    The violence being referred to started after the ISAF invasion, and the spillover was the result of a poorly planned war, so who else would you like to blame?
    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
    https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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