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  1. #1
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    German Defense Cooperations

    Germany has signed bilateral Declarations of Intent with Poland and the Netherlands in the last two days. These Declarations of Intent envision a close cooperation between the countries in defense matters.

    Solid things agreed upon, short-term:
    • Integration of the Dutch 11th Airmobile Brigade into the German Rapid Forces Division effective Jan 1st, 2014
    • Inclusion of Dutch exchange officers into the German PAC3-armed missile defense wing beginning 2014
    • development of a joint German/Dutch fire support unit, FOC agreed 2016-2018
    • transition of 1 GE/NL Corps into a binational JTF HQ L / J2C2
    • exchange of personnel between German and Dutch naval units; personnel exchange between German and Polish Navies; mutual embarkation of helicopter detachments and boarding/protection naval infantry between Germany and Poland
    • Joint training of German and Dutch Mechanized/Armoured forces, already ongoing; also expansion to fire support, predeployment, helicopter, certification exercises, SERE (with Belgium), para, naval training and damage control training (both also with Poland), CBRN and pretty much everything else
    • cooperation regarding support of shared weapon systems between Germany and Poland (RBS15 Mk3, MU90)


    Medium-term agreements:
    • development of a mission-oriented joint ground-based air- and missile defense wing, i.e. joint deployment of the two PAC3 wings of Germany and the Netherlands
    • establishment of a joint German/Dutch submarine command as well as a joint German/Polish "submarine operating authority"
    • establishment of joint tactical CIMIC units between Germany and the Netherlands
    • joint development and procurement of shipborne mission modules between Germany and Poland (for systems such as MRCS180)
    • bilateral support agreement between Germany and Netherlands regarding NH90 TTH (training, maintenance etc); "if" NH90 NFH procured by Germany possible trilateral treaty with Belgium


    Long-term Procurement:
    • joint development, procurement and manning of Joint Support Ships (amphibious assault ships) between Germany and Poland
    • joint procurement and operation of new oilers/tankers between Germany and Poland
    • joint replacement of MCM capabilities between Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium with common successor class
    • development of sea-based TBMD capability between Germany and the Netherlands based on SMART-L and existing AAW frigate classes
    • envisioned: possible shared common successor class for current German and Dutch submarine classes
    • envisioned: joint procurement of (possibly armed) MALE UAVs between Germany and Netherlands


    Feasibility Studies:
    • common logistic support between Germany and the Netherlands; logistic role specializations
    • shared officer/NCO training between Germany and the Netherlands
    • possible re-attachment of actual units to 1 GE/NL Corps


    Plus some more stuff. Mostly regarding regular meetings at staff/directorate level, mutual posting of exchange personnel to HQs, joint planning and preparation for deployments. And a vision to possibly in the future run German and Dutch services under a single shared command.

  2. #2
    In Memoriam Military Professional Minskaya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    [*]envisioned: joint procurement of (possibly armed) MALE UAVs between Germany and Netherlands
    I believe Germany is currently awaiting certification of the Eurohawk UAV for signals intelligence missions. Germany is currently using three Israeli Heron UAVs and will be testing the Israeli Eitan and the US Reaper for armed drones. However, I understand there is quite a bit of opposition in Parliament over the use of armed drones.

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    Eurohawk is as good as dead, the defense minister is probably going down over that affair. Same goes for Global Hawk, of which Germany wanted to buy five for NATO AGS. There's suggestions being tossed around mostly on the internet for possible manned successor projects, as the EADS-designed sensor suite can be adapted to other suitably sized platforms.

    Germany has a (long-running) requirement called SAATEG for 16 MALE drones, which will under current assumptions be either Reaper or Eitan if realized; three leased Heron are used as an intermediate solution in Afghanistan. Neither Eitan nor Reaper are being tested so far. The Netherlands used leased Aerostars in Afghanistan (lease cancelled with withdrawal), and has a requirement for 4 MALE drones to be introduced within the next 2-3 years.
    Last edited by kato; 29 May 13, at 20:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minskaya View Post
    I believe Germany is currently awaiting certification of the Eurohawk UAV for signals intelligence missions. Germany is currently using three Israeli Heron UAVs and will be testing the Israeli Eitan and the US Reaper for armed drones.
    The German MoD has finally found a way around the lack of certification (and certificability) of HALE drones for European airspace.

    We're now leasing a number of Heron TP / Eitan which simply won't enter European airspace. The drones will be stationed with IAI (or rather: a joint venture of IAI and EADS) in Israel when not in use on deployment. For deployment, these will go to the deployment theater with a forward deployment of drone controllers from the 51st Reconnaissance Wing. The Heron TPs will be procured in 2018 with an option to be armed. Cost will be around 600 million Euro. Intermediate solution until then is additional Heron 1 UAVs as currently used in Afghanistan; these additional units would be used in Mali. The leasing contract will probably be valid until 2025, when a new solution will be sought.

    Factually this means a future defense cooperation with the Israeli Air Force, given the necessity for weapons training.

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    According to Dutch media it's possible that a formal agreement on joint use of Karel Doorman by both Germany and the Netherlands will be prepared after the next meeting of each country's ministers of defense on February 4th.

    Karel Doorman is a 28,000-ton sea base ship built to accomodate a large flight deck (two spots for Chinooks, up to six NH90 in the hangar), RoRo capacity of 2000 lane meters of vehicles and a "steel beach" for loading landing craft at sea (no well deck).

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    Announcement for the marines came as expected - from onboard HNLMS Karel Doorman. Karel Doorman was anchored in the Dutch capital for the first time today. She had two German tanks onboard loaded by Dutch LCUs for the occasion.

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    In case anyone wonders, no, they're not sitting under their respective flags.

    • German naval infantry battalion will be integrated in Dutch Royal Marines around 2019
    • Karel Doorman will be available for German use in return
    • Dutch 43rd Mechanized Brigade will be integrated in German 1st Armored Division
      • German 414th Armor Battalion will be integrated in the Dutch 43rd Mechanized Brigade
      • a Dutch tank company will be integrated in 414th Armor Battalion
      • the tanks for that company will be sold by the Netherlands to Germany (16), upgraded to Leo 2A7 standard and leased back (18) by the Netherlands
      • first joint live-fire training for that unit (in Germany) is next week
    • an agreement was signed last week between Germany and the Benelux countries on joint air defense. Further development agreed on may result in a German BMD unit being placed under Dutch command.
    Last edited by kato; 04 Feb 16, at 23:03.

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    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    kato, can you tell me what language this integrated unit would use? I'm always interested in how different forces can integrate without a common language. Dutch is Germanic based, but with differences? What if a member of the unit can't speak this common language?

    It's easy for US forces because Canadians, British, Australians, and New Zealanders speak a form of English that's close enough to understand. Hell, I have more problems understanding a Georgian with heavy southern drawl than a English from the east side of London.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    • German naval infantry battalion will be integrated in Dutch Royal Marines around 2019
    • Karel Doorman will be available for German use in return
    Belgium is now joining that cooperation in a bilateral Dutch-Belgian treaty. The Belgian Military will contribute crew components to Karel Doorman, either a medical unit or aircrew with helicopters. In addition two Belgian infantry companies will be trained up by the Dutch Marines for amphibious operations in a joint context from Dutch LPDs, likely one company each from 3rd Paratroop Bn and 2nd Commando Bn (both of which nominally have amphibious warfare as part of their portfolio). In return the Dutch Marines get to use the Belgian-Dutch joint paratrooper school drawing specifically on experience of Belgian commando units.

    The Dutch Ministry of Defence sees the treaty with Belgium for the above in direct context with the bilateral treaty with Germany and is interested in "bringing more countries" into the fold with them as a lead nation for amphibious warfare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    The drones will be stationed with IAI (or rather: a joint venture of IAI and EADS) in Israel when not in use on deployment. For deployment, these will go to the deployment theater with a forward deployment of drone controllers from the 51st Reconnaissance Wing. The Heron TPs will be procured in 2018 with an option to be armed. Cost will be around 600 million Euro.
    Now finally up for budget discussion, planned in three weeks in parliament. Was delayed a bit since General Atomics tried to get the deal for the Reaper through courts (and failed). Planned operations still as in post above.

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    German, French defense ministers talk new European security force

    Germany and France say they are working together toward a European security force. The Franco-German initiative is being viewed as a reaction to US President Donald Trump, but it actually goes back a lot further.


    At the press conference in Berlin after their first bilateral meeting, German Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen and her newly-appointed French colleague Sylvie Goulard started with a few words in each other's language. The message was obvious. France and Germany want to be seen as a unit, working hand-in-hand to make Europe more responsible for its own security.

    "We know that our common friendship and common work goes far beyond bilateralism," von der Leyen said. "For both of our countries it's crucial that we create more for Europe and that we work together toward a European defense and security union."

    At the core of those efforts is the so-called Permanent Structured Cooperation, or PESCO, which in the words of the European Commission, "allows a core group of countries to take systematic steps towards a more coherent security and defense policy without dividing the Union." Essentially, it is a mechanism allowing willing countries to launch joint security projects without requiring all EU member states to agree or participate.

    "We have to work together for European immigration, but we also need to be open for other partners," said Goulard, who only became French defense minister two weeks ago. "It's a very ambitious project we're starting, but we don't want to put up any barriers to other European countries that don't share our ambitions."

    The two defense ministers said that they had made considerable progress with respect to PESCO and security initiatives to help five countries in sub-Saharan Africa fight terrorism.

    Any talk of large European security partners is bound to be read against the backdrop of tensions between Donald Trump and America's NATO partners over spending. So did Thursday's Franco-German meeting come in response to the US president's accusations that Europeans aren't pulling their weight defense-wise?

    Not primarily a reaction to Trump

    Regardless of its initial motivations, the emphasis on European self-reliance dovetails with the decreased reliability of the US as a partner for Europe, which German Chancellor Angela Merkel highlighted earlier this week.

    "This is one of the outcomes since Trump won the US election," leading German security journalist Julia Weigelt told DW. "With Trump's last tour, it became clear that he's not just 'America first' but 'America only and we don't care about the rest.' People may have thought that he was just making campaign promises, but more and more of them are waking up."

    But Weigelt adds that the European initiative to assume more responsibility for security predates Trump, going back to the 2014 Munich Security Conference and even further. That's a point made by other security experts as well.

    "There's a long-term shift in US interests, and the trans-Atlantic relationship has changed," Christian Mölling of the German Council on Foreign Relations told DW. "The US has been moving out of Europe and more toward Asia. That's true in areas other than security. It's become harder to define common interests between Americans and Europeans. The discussion about an increased role for the EU clearly began before Trump."

    Not necessarily about 2 percent

    Trump is insisting that all members of NATO spend 2 percent of GDP on defense and has singled out Germany for particular criticism. Last year Germany devoted 1.2 percent of GDP to defense expenditures. The figure in France was 1.8 percent. So will the new security thrust bring defense spending more in line with what Trump wants?

    European experts say percentage of GDP spent on defense is a poor measure of how much any country is effectively doing to ensure security for itself and its allies. The key to the PESCO initiative is not just to spend more, but to spend more intelligently.

    "If European countries spend their money more wisely, if they get 100 euros more worth of airplane than previously, that strengthens NATO," explains Weigelt. "I think we need to stop thinking in terms of competition. And that's actually what Trump is demanding when he says that we should take responsibility into our own hands."

    Increasing efficiency is the main thrust of PESCO. At their joint press conference, the two defense ministers stressed the need to enable Europe as a whole to respond to crises, citing the latest Ebola outbreak in Africa from 2014-16 as an example in which Europe had been unable to act as a whole. Being able to function as a larger unit, say experts, is the key to progress.

    "The challenges in the area of defense are no longer a matter of smaller (largely symbolic) associations like the French-German Brigade, but keeping Europe as a whole prepared to intervene militarily," Mölling said.

    Differences in philosophy

    Neither PESCO nor any other initiative seeks to define the exact form European security cooperation of the future will take. It's unclear, for instance, whether the aim is to make the EU a security as well as an economic and political institution. That openness is by design.

    "I wouldn't necessarily say that it has to happen within the framework of the European Union," Mölling explains. "People are discussing right now whether the EU should play a greater role because we have Brexit or Trump. I don't really care in which institutional framework it happens. The main thing is that something gets done."

    But whatever framework, if any, ultimately emerges for Europe's future security concept, differences in outlook with the US and the UK will remain.

    "What Trump wants is for Germany to pay more - what Germany wants, since the Munich Security Conference in 2014, is to recognize and fulfill its responsibilities," Weigelt said. "But the difference between the German and the Anglo-American position is that responsibility is not necessarily the same as military deployments. It means resolving conflicts, and von der Leyen said recently that the military doesn't resolve conflict. Politics resolves conflict. The military is there to create a break in conflict."

    That philosophy will guide any new European defense and security union.
    http://www.dw.com/en/german-french-d...rce/a-39086419

    The article is kinda wrong in calling Goulard the French Minister of Defence. Macron renamed the office to Minister of the Armed Forces.

    A summary of PESCO can be found here with the EU.

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    The Bundeswehr is preparing to move its aircraft currently stationed at Incirlik to Al Azraq due to the current political problems between Germany and Turkey. The base in Jordan - 50 km from the Syrian border - has been scoped, SOFA agreement has been inked, and an agreement with USAF has been drawn up to use their C-17 fleet to speed up the move of the 270 men and their about 10,000 tons material. The base is co-used by the JAF and USAF, and has previously been used as a forward stationing base by Belgium and the Netherlands. The Luftwaffe guys stationed with NATO AWACS at Konya AFB in Turkey are not affected.

    Government will officially decide whether to withdraw German operations in Turkey next wednesday. The affair is part of the current campaign mode of the government parties, with the SPD gaining the upper hand over the pro-Erdogan CDU in this case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    • Integration of the Dutch 11th Airmobile Brigade into the German Rapid Forces Division effective Jan 1st, 2014
    Done, 11 AMB is under OPCOM of DSK.

    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    • Inclusion of Dutch exchange officers into the German PAC3-armed missile defense wing beginning 2014
    Relevant PAC-3 units of both countries remain deployed for OP Active Fence in Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    • development of a joint German/Dutch fire support unit, FOC agreed 2016-2018
    Apparently as sort of early trials Germany is fielding an artillery unit in the RFP for NRF 2014 (reinforced battery size, supporting a battle group), with Dutch artillery men embedded. Although getting details on the current RFP is like pulling teeth...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    • establishment of a joint German/Dutch submarine command
    Going in this direction, the German and Dutch navies are apparently planning that the German submarine tender FGS Main will support the Dutch submarines as well while their own support ship HNLMS Mercuur will undergo a longer yard time in 2015.

    Participation in recent joint maneuvers - such as a combined ASW and ASuW exercise with a German and Dutch sub hunting each other down in late May attended by both Mercuur and Main - have served to evaluate this further. Although of course the duties of Mercuur (a torpedo recovery ship) and Main (a quite bigger full SSK squadron support ship) are somewhat different. Germany decommissioned its last dedicated torpedo recovery boats in the 90s.

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    Note USAREUR recently appointed a German general officer as chief of staff. Unprecedented in my memory-

    German Army General Appointed USAREUR Chief Of Staff-AP Aug. 1, 2014
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2 View Post
    Note USAREUR recently appointed a German general officer as chief of staff. Unprecedented in my memory-

    German Army General Appointed USAREUR Chief Of Staff-AP Aug. 1, 2014
    Steve,

    They may as well take over the whole enchilada. "USAREUR" is 2 brigades....a Stryker and an Airborne!
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