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Thread: German Defense Cooperations

  1. #76
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    MBDA, Lockheed announce joint venture to develop missile defense system for Germany

    MBDA Deutschland and Lockheed Martin announced March 8 they have unified efforts to bring Germany’s next-generation integrated air and missile defense system, called TLVS, to life under a joint venture.

    The joint venture, rather than either company, will be considered the prime contractor for TLVS, according to Lockheed Martin. The contract is being negotiated with Germany’s procurement office for the country’s armed forces, the Bundeswehr.

    Defense News had reported this week that the establishment of a joint venture was imminent.

    MBDA and Lockheed Martin will split the equity from TLVS, with MBDA getting 60 percent and Lockheed receiving 40 percent, a Lockheed spokeswoman confirmed.

    Lockheed’s Gregory Kee and MBDA’s Dietmar Thelen will lead the joint venture operating out of MBDA’s office in Schrobenhausen, Germany. The joint venture will also operate out of Dallas, Texas; Huntsville, Alabama; Syracuse, New York; and Ulm and Koblenz, Germany.
    More here: https://www.defensenews.com/land/201...m-for-germany/

  2. #77
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    There were some rumours last year that the ministry of defense was looking for a larger involvement of LM in order to limit financial risks.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Next development is under Green Apollo; German FlaRakGr 61 will be placed under Dutch command at the end of this month.
    Took a bit longer - but FlaRagGr 61 with 450 soldiers was officially transferred to Dutch command yesterday.

  4. #79
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    http://www.dw.com/en/us-approves-25b...any/a-43289530

    US approves $2.5b drone sale to Germany

    After Germany nixed the disastrous Euro Hawk program, the US has approved the sale of a replacement system. The four drones will allow Germany to survey vast swathes of land from the sky,

    The US State Department approved the sale of $2.5 billion (€2.04 billion) worth of military drones to Germany, it announced on Thursday.

    The deal includes four MQ-4C Triton Unmanned Aircraft Systems as well as a mission control station, a main operating base, a forward operating base and other equipment and services.

    The drones will be produced by military contractors Northrop Grumman Corp and Airbus Defense and Space.

    German daily "Welt" reported the drones will be outfitted with German-made reconnaissance and monitoring technology.

    "Germany is one of the major political and economic powers in Europe and NATO and a key partner of the United States in ensuring global peace and stability," the State Department said.

    "The proposed sale of the MQ-4C Triton will support legitimate national security requirements and significantly enhance Germany's intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities and the overall collective security of the European Union and NATO.

    "The proposed sale of the MQ-4C Triton will close a crucial capability gap and will enhance bilateral and NATO interoperability and will help ensure that Germany is able to continue to monitor and deter regional threats."

    Euro Hawk disaster

    The Triton systems are being delivered following a bungled 2013 effort to buy "Euro Hawk" drones for similar purposes. That deal was nixed for aviation safety issues.

    The standard model MQ-4C Triton semi-autonomous surveillance drones can fly for 30 hours and can survey 7,000,000 square kilometers (2,700,000 sq mi) in a single pass.

    The drones will likely take to the skies some time in 2025.

  5. #80
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    We basically just buy the drones empty as carriers for the German ISIS recce payload. German designation will be Pegasus (PErsistent German Airborne SUrveillance System).

    The contract for Pegasus is subject to two quality gates ("suitability prognosis" for the ISIS payload and regulatory legal changes for autonomous flight permits - both were cleared last year) and has four milestones to achieve all of which individually can lead to a breakoff of procurement (all four milestones are about airworthiness and getting it a flight permit for European skies, which is basically what Eurohawk died over).

    Unlike Triton, Pegasus is intended for strategic electronic reconnaissance against C4I infrastructure, replacing the Breguet Atlantique in SIGINT version that were retired a couple years ago. ISIS is short for Integrated Signal Intelligence System. For level of ambition, the last mission the Atlantiques were seriously considered for (but considered unable) was keeping overwatch over Russia's war against Georgia.

  6. #81
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Full article: http://www.dw.com/en/us-secretary-of...ing/a-43572473

    US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo hammers Germany over defense spending

    At a meeting of NATO foreign ministers in Brussels on Friday, The new US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo chided allies, foremost among them Germany, for a lack of progress in meeting defense spending commitments.

    Although German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas stressed his country's humanitarian efforts in Syria and Iraq, adding that the new government was currently preparing a budget, he stopped shy of promising it would lead to increased defense spending.

    Key points of Pompeo's address
    • Pompeo, on the job for less than a day, immediately called out allies for the slow pace of spending increases.
    • Echoing what has been a standard US talking point for years, he told attendees that "European nations must bear the necessary responsibilities for their security and make the case to their fellow citizens why it is critical to fulfil their obligations on defense spending."
    • Asked if Germany was doing enough, he said: "No. They should meet the goals they signed up for."
    • He noted the US was "thrilled" that so many allies prioritized defense spending but added, "That's what they signed up for."
    • He stated the US expects to see finalized plans for meeting spending commitments by July.
    • Pompeo also said that Russian aggression and meddling had made NATO "more indispensable than ever."

    Reactions

    NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said of Pompeo's arrival just hours after being sworn in: "I think it's a new record. It reconfirms the commitment of the United States and President Trump to the transatlantic bond."

    German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas: Germany "has an extraordinary presence in terms of its perception of its international responsibility and we are also fulfilling our obligations to NATO."

    Not paying their dues: US President Donald Trump has repeatedly slammed NATO allies for falling short of their commitments towards NATO's defense spending. Several NATO countries, including Germany, are way short of meeting a commitment made at a NATO summit in Wales in 2014 to spend two percent of their gross domestic product on defense by 2024.

    Which EU countries meet the spending target: Greece, Britain, Estonia and Poland are four of NATO's EU allies that meet the 2 percent spending target.
    http://www.dw.com/en/us-secretary-of...ing/a-43572473
    Appearances can be... deceptive. -Chad Feldheimer

  7. #82
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    adding that the new government was currently preparing a budget, he stopped shy of promising it would lead to increased defense spending

    Uh. The German government has a financial planning guideline valid to 2021 (full document in German) passed by the last government - i.e. until the next election. For defense it raises expenditures to €38.5b in 2018 (projected 1.23% of GDP, same as 2017); €39.9b in 2019, €41.2b in 2020 and €42.4b in 2021.

    German reporting on the meeting is pretty... mute. I've found exactly one mainstream article on it - and that's just the same DPA press agency article that DW bases the above article on.

  8. #83
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    German MoD von der Leyen has indirectly given her answer to Pompeo and Trump today.

    1.5% in 2025 targeted, to be announced at the NATO summit in July.

    And with the sidesnipe that that's considered to fulfill any self-imposed obligations to NATO.

    Doubt that will hit much of the press though, it was at a speech at a top-level Bundeswehr convention.

    With regard to cooperation, same speech, random tidbits:
    • PESCO is considered core of European Defense Union leading towards an "Army of Europeans" (not a European Army...)
    • Germany and Netherlands will jointly procure next generation of tactical communications systems
    • EUTM Mali will be transferred to the Franco-German Brigade under a German general.

    She also sorta undercover prepped people for the yet-to-be-announced "LV/BV" Bundeswehr transition that's in detail planning and targeted primarily against Russia (Landesverteidigung/Bündnisverteidigung - National Defense/Alliance Defense). And, aimed in the same direction, announced ADIC - "Agency for Disruptive Innovation for Cybersecurity" - which she claims will be a German DARPA.

  9. #84
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
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    Kato, I was hoping to get your thoughts on this over on the F-35 thread but let me repost it here since I think it fits with German Defense Cooperation as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by kato
    Eh, in my opinion we should just hop onto the ASN4G train, give the Prometheus variant a push and buy our carrier system in accordance with that.
    The problem is that changing horses would require politicians to publicly talk about the fact that Germany not only possesses nuclear weapons already, but that they are buying brand new ones. From what I understand of the German public, that's likely to have seriously negative political repercussions for the German leadership. Which is why the Tornado replacement program is so late to begin with.

    I see a few options for Germany but none of them are great.

    • Certifying Typhoons for B-61 deployment is possible but I don't really see it happening anytime soon. F-35 is going to get nuclear certification priority and there's going to be a lot of political red tape regarding Eurofighter software access to hash out. This could drag out for a long time.
    • Following the lead of the UK, Netherlands, and Italy in buying F-35s. This would impose a domestic cost on the leadership for spurning domestic industry.
    • Scrapping the nuclear sharing deal altogether would burn bridges with Washington and other large NATO members.
    • Switching to a French deterrent results in changing the status quo and requires bringing a public discussion of nuclear policy to the German public which is political suicide. France's culture of strategic independence is also totally at odds with giving a foreign country any say in how the force de frappe is utilized.


    Perhaps the best option is advancing cooperative burden sharing with the Netherlands following the precedent of shared batallions, Leopard 2s, HNLMS Karel Doorman etc.

    Germany could underwrite a couple squadrons of Dutch F-35s to be operated jointly from Büchel Air Base while additional Typhoons fill in the rest of the conventional strike gaps. The bombs stay under the current American manned arrangement and now German politicians can wink and claim they don't own any nuclear capable aircraft.

    This seems like the arrangement that goes over the smoothest. The Dutch get their F-35 numbers shored up, Eurofighter consortium gets additional orders on the books, nuclear sharing arrangements aren't modified and need not be brought up in public, and Germany won't "own" any American nuclear delivery systems... even if German pilots happen to fly them regularly.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    The problem is that changing horses would require politicians to publicly talk about the fact that Germany not only possesses nuclear weapons already, but that they are buying brand new ones.
    Oh, we don't possess nuclear weapons. And us being one of the most ardent defenders of the NPT makes sure we won't buy any. We just uh... what was the official line... provide carriers to carry foreign-owned nukes. To their targets.

    Other than that, for the political angle let me quote two things:

    "For as long as nuclear weapons remain an instrument of deterrence within the strategic concept of NATO Germany has an interest in participating in the strategic discussions and planning processes [regarding them]. Successful [nuclear] disarmament talks shall form the precondition for withdrawing the tactical nuclear weapons currently stationed in Germany and Europe."
    - current coalition treaty as passed in March this year

    "Germany remains involved with nuclear politics and relevant planning of [NATO] through continued nuclear sharing."
    - current Whitebook of the Bundeswehr

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    I see a few options for Germany but none of them are great.
    There's one additional option. Certifying the EA-18G for B61 Mod 12 on the US side (while very low priority not exactly too outlandish) and Germany procuring a limited number to effect primarily an airborne EW role, a requirement that the Luftwaffe is looking for an aircraft for to replace Tornado ECR - and which Boeing two weeks ago offered Growlers for. Boeing is trying to shore up their proposal of Super Hornets as a Tornado IDS replacement by claiming only Growlers can replace the ECR.

    That kinda deal would have mutual benefits, and wouldn't be an F-35.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    France's culture of strategic independence is also totally at odds with giving a foreign country any say in how the force de frappe is utilized.
    They've offered us half their ASMP before.

    ASN4G is actually an interesting project insofar as Germany could contribute to it financially and in R&D without even going into nuclear sharing with France. Just claim it's a joint R&D project for a hypersonic missile that combines pre-existing German and French research on that. It would additionally be quite interesting since the time that Tornado is going out fits just perfectly into the assembly line of Rafale F4...
    Last edited by kato; 14 May 18, at 20:57.

  11. #86
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    There's one additional option. Certifying the EA-18G for B61 Mod 12 on the US side (while very low priority not exactly too outlandish) and Germany procuring a limited number to effect primarily an airborne EW role, a requirement that the Luftwaffe is looking for an aircraft for to replace Tornado ECR - and which Boeing two weeks ago offered Growlers for. Boeing is trying to shore up their proposal of Super Hornets as a Tornado IDS replacement by claiming only Growlers can replace the ECR.

    That kinda deal would have mutual benefits, and wouldn't be an F-35.
    This is an interesting proposal, it keeps Typhoon trade secrets away from Boeing and Lockheed and avoids the F-35 killing the Franco-German fighter project in it's infancy. I doubt the US would bother with EA-18G nuclear integration on it's own since the F-35 is better suited for the job, but I also think the US would be fine with letting Germany foot most of the bill for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    They've offered us half their ASMP before.

    ASN4G is actually an interesting project insofar as Germany could contribute to it financially and in R&D without even going into nuclear sharing with France. Just claim it's a joint R&D project for a hypersonic missile that combines pre-existing German and French research on that. It would additionally be quite interesting since the time that Tornado is going out fits just perfectly into the assembly line of Rafale F4...
    Do you have any literature that discusses France actually offering Germany nuclear weapons? This is the first I've heard of the idea being anything more than speculation.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    Do you have any literature that discusses France actually offering Germany nuclear weapons? This is the first I've heard of the idea being anything more than speculation.
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-506124.html
    That's for Sarkozy in 2007. While in itself "second-hand" as a source, it has made its way into professional literature e.g. here.

    Historically there's also the thing with de Gaulle supposedly offering in 1963 (which the French of course claim "he didn't mean it that way"), but that was realistically part of a game in which Germany used hyperbole on a supposed French interest in moving them into their sphere of influence to pressure Washington into letting Germany in on the MLF, i.e. the then-proposed nuclear armed naval force with multinational NATO crews.

  13. #88
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-506124.html
    That's for Sarkozy in 2007. While in itself "second-hand" as a source, it has made its way into professional literature e.g. here.
    Good stuff, thanks!

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