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Thread: German Defense Cooperations

  1. #46
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    http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...-and-handed-it

    i agree with the sentiment that NATO allies need to contribute more to the common defense, but if true, seriously...what a dick.

    Trump handed £300B NATO 'invoice' to German chancellor: report
    BY MALLORY SHELBOURNE - 03/26/17 01:50 PM EDT 543

    President Trump gave German Chancellor Angela Merkel a staff-created bill for NATO defenses estimated at £300 billion, The Times of London reported on Sunday.

    Trump reportedly handed Merkel the invoice during her trip to Washington, D.C. earlier this month.

    “The concept behind putting out such demands is to intimidate the other side, but the chancellor took it calmly and will not respond to such provocations,” a German minister told the newspaper.

    Trump during his presidential campaign railed against the NATO alliance and has called for member countries to increase defense spending to support the organization.

    Merkel “ignored the provocation,” the Times said.

    The Independent reported that the fake “invoice” listed a total, as estimated by Trump's aides, to cover Germany’s unpaid contributions. In 2014, NATO countries pledge to spend 2 percent of their gross domestic product on defense. The Independent said Trump told aides to calculate how much German spending fell below that 2 percent in the past 12 years -- backdating the invoice to when Merkel's predecessor was in charge -- then add interest.

    In a joint press conference with Merkel during her visit, Trump told reporters that he emphasized the United States’ commitment to NATO and the need for allies to increase defense spending.

    The chancellor said her country plans to increase its spending on NATO to 2 percent of Germany’s gross domestic product.
    Last edited by astralis; 26 Mar 17, at 20:59.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  2. #47
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    There's some people suggesting we should hand the US a bill for the ODA quota in return, i.e. for the self-proclaimed target signed at the UN to spend 0.7% GDP on foreign aid. Which the USA undercuts since 1972 by a far higher margin than Germany's defence undercuts.

  3. #48
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    There's some people suggesting we should hand the US a bill for the ODA quota in return, i.e. for the self-proclaimed target signed at the UN to spend 0.7% GDP on foreign aid. Which the USA undercuts since 1972 by a far higher margin than Germany's defence undercuts.
    Meh, you are at 0.5%. Should you fine yourselves, too?

    And one math issue. How can 2 be less then 0.5?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  4. #49
    Dirty Kiwi Senior Contributor
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    Ahh, I remember being told of NZ being handed a bill at the end of WWII for our defense. We handed one back for a dollar more for supplying board, food and the ongoing care and education of the many American-fathered babies left behind. A far as I'm aware the dollar wasn't paid. :-)
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    The German-French C-130 squadron has been revealed to be planned as a fully binational unit - i.e. including multinational individual crews and full access of either country to aircraft provided by the other. Operationally similar to NATO AWACS flights.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    i agree with the sentiment that NATO allies need to contribute more to the common defense, but if true, seriously...what a dick.
    German government has officially denied these reports to be true according to their spokesman.

    The standard interpretation of this denial is that while they didn't "send us a bill" the way the London Times wrote, someone did calculate that amount and presented it when Merkel was over there.

  7. #52
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    yeah, the story sounded just a bit too "fantastic" (in the unreal sense) to me, so i'm glad i added the qualifier. :-)
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Norway will procure four of the new subs (to replace six current), Germany will procure two (rounding out inventory to eight subs).
    Some details on design:

    Type 212CD ("Common Design"):
    - based on Type 212A
    - new pressure hull with enhanced stealth features that will not be rounded like previous designs
    - only slightly larger than Type 212A to preserve agility in littoral environments and enhance stealth
    - lithium-ion batteries
    - overall enhanced speed, endurance and range over Type 212A
    - mine-laying capability
    - IDAS anti-air/anti-ship/land-attack missile integration
    - possibly sub-launched NSM integration (conceptually only so far; Kongsberg is pushing for it)
    - first German boat in 2025 or 2026
    - currently being considered to replace Type 212A while selling off the only 20-25 year old boats to allied navies at that point

    Italy meanwhile will procure an additional four Type 212A, with this batch now having more Italian production components (but only slight upgrades compared to standard Type 212A, the batteries being one of them).

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    The drones will be stationed with IAI (or rather: a joint venture of IAI and EADS) in Israel when not in use on deployment. For deployment, these will go to the deployment theater with a forward deployment of drone controllers from the 51st Reconnaissance Wing. The Heron TPs will be procured in 2018 with an option to be armed. Cost will be around 600 million Euro.
    Now finally up for budget discussion, planned in three weeks in parliament. Was delayed a bit since General Atomics tried to get the deal for the Reaper through courts (and failed). Planned operations still as in post above.

  10. #55
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    German, French defense ministers talk new European security force

    Germany and France say they are working together toward a European security force. The Franco-German initiative is being viewed as a reaction to US President Donald Trump, but it actually goes back a lot further.


    At the press conference in Berlin after their first bilateral meeting, German Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen and her newly-appointed French colleague Sylvie Goulard started with a few words in each other's language. The message was obvious. France and Germany want to be seen as a unit, working hand-in-hand to make Europe more responsible for its own security.

    "We know that our common friendship and common work goes far beyond bilateralism," von der Leyen said. "For both of our countries it's crucial that we create more for Europe and that we work together toward a European defense and security union."

    At the core of those efforts is the so-called Permanent Structured Cooperation, or PESCO, which in the words of the European Commission, "allows a core group of countries to take systematic steps towards a more coherent security and defense policy without dividing the Union." Essentially, it is a mechanism allowing willing countries to launch joint security projects without requiring all EU member states to agree or participate.

    "We have to work together for European immigration, but we also need to be open for other partners," said Goulard, who only became French defense minister two weeks ago. "It's a very ambitious project we're starting, but we don't want to put up any barriers to other European countries that don't share our ambitions."

    The two defense ministers said that they had made considerable progress with respect to PESCO and security initiatives to help five countries in sub-Saharan Africa fight terrorism.

    Any talk of large European security partners is bound to be read against the backdrop of tensions between Donald Trump and America's NATO partners over spending. So did Thursday's Franco-German meeting come in response to the US president's accusations that Europeans aren't pulling their weight defense-wise?

    Not primarily a reaction to Trump

    Regardless of its initial motivations, the emphasis on European self-reliance dovetails with the decreased reliability of the US as a partner for Europe, which German Chancellor Angela Merkel highlighted earlier this week.

    "This is one of the outcomes since Trump won the US election," leading German security journalist Julia Weigelt told DW. "With Trump's last tour, it became clear that he's not just 'America first' but 'America only and we don't care about the rest.' People may have thought that he was just making campaign promises, but more and more of them are waking up."

    But Weigelt adds that the European initiative to assume more responsibility for security predates Trump, going back to the 2014 Munich Security Conference and even further. That's a point made by other security experts as well.

    "There's a long-term shift in US interests, and the trans-Atlantic relationship has changed," Christian Mölling of the German Council on Foreign Relations told DW. "The US has been moving out of Europe and more toward Asia. That's true in areas other than security. It's become harder to define common interests between Americans and Europeans. The discussion about an increased role for the EU clearly began before Trump."

    Not necessarily about 2 percent

    Trump is insisting that all members of NATO spend 2 percent of GDP on defense and has singled out Germany for particular criticism. Last year Germany devoted 1.2 percent of GDP to defense expenditures. The figure in France was 1.8 percent. So will the new security thrust bring defense spending more in line with what Trump wants?

    European experts say percentage of GDP spent on defense is a poor measure of how much any country is effectively doing to ensure security for itself and its allies. The key to the PESCO initiative is not just to spend more, but to spend more intelligently.

    "If European countries spend their money more wisely, if they get 100 euros more worth of airplane than previously, that strengthens NATO," explains Weigelt. "I think we need to stop thinking in terms of competition. And that's actually what Trump is demanding when he says that we should take responsibility into our own hands."

    Increasing efficiency is the main thrust of PESCO. At their joint press conference, the two defense ministers stressed the need to enable Europe as a whole to respond to crises, citing the latest Ebola outbreak in Africa from 2014-16 as an example in which Europe had been unable to act as a whole. Being able to function as a larger unit, say experts, is the key to progress.

    "The challenges in the area of defense are no longer a matter of smaller (largely symbolic) associations like the French-German Brigade, but keeping Europe as a whole prepared to intervene militarily," Mölling said.

    Differences in philosophy

    Neither PESCO nor any other initiative seeks to define the exact form European security cooperation of the future will take. It's unclear, for instance, whether the aim is to make the EU a security as well as an economic and political institution. That openness is by design.

    "I wouldn't necessarily say that it has to happen within the framework of the European Union," Mölling explains. "People are discussing right now whether the EU should play a greater role because we have Brexit or Trump. I don't really care in which institutional framework it happens. The main thing is that something gets done."

    But whatever framework, if any, ultimately emerges for Europe's future security concept, differences in outlook with the US and the UK will remain.

    "What Trump wants is for Germany to pay more - what Germany wants, since the Munich Security Conference in 2014, is to recognize and fulfill its responsibilities," Weigelt said. "But the difference between the German and the Anglo-American position is that responsibility is not necessarily the same as military deployments. It means resolving conflicts, and von der Leyen said recently that the military doesn't resolve conflict. Politics resolves conflict. The military is there to create a break in conflict."

    That philosophy will guide any new European defense and security union.
    http://www.dw.com/en/german-french-d...rce/a-39086419

    The article is kinda wrong in calling Goulard the French Minister of Defence. Macron renamed the office to Minister of the Armed Forces.

    A summary of PESCO can be found here with the EU.

  11. #56
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    The Bundeswehr is preparing to move its aircraft currently stationed at Incirlik to Al Azraq due to the current political problems between Germany and Turkey. The base in Jordan - 50 km from the Syrian border - has been scoped, SOFA agreement has been inked, and an agreement with USAF has been drawn up to use their C-17 fleet to speed up the move of the 270 men and their about 10,000 tons material. The base is co-used by the JAF and USAF, and has previously been used as a forward stationing base by Belgium and the Netherlands. The Luftwaffe guys stationed with NATO AWACS at Konya AFB in Turkey are not affected.

    Government will officially decide whether to withdraw German operations in Turkey next wednesday. The affair is part of the current campaign mode of the government parties, with the SPD gaining the upper hand over the pro-Erdogan CDU in this case.

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