The US Recovery

[DOR]

Mono-cultures are unhealthy cultures.

That’s why we rotate crops.

That's why multi-generation families are so good.

That’s why we seek a diverse gene pool.

That’s why immigration is so important to our future.

That’s why intolerance is as dangerous as in-breeding.

[astralis]

^ gotta have the right background for it to work. the US -does-, which is why it's great for immigration.

i don't agree with Ben Sasse on much, but he's right in that the encroaching blood-and-soil nationalism of European conservatism is infecting US conservatism.

[GVChamp]

"rotating crops" sounds like an awful nice way of describing humanity's impact on the biosphere. For the most part, we've eliminated actually diverse ecosystems and replaced them with carefully managed, selectively bred, relatively uniform farms.

US culture is much more melting pot and destroys whatever prior culture you came here with. I've got no traditional Hungarian or Norwegian left in me at all. I eat Kraft Macaroni and Cheese and watch the NFL like most other Americans, and my Christmas is celebrated with in the bland American style, with a Prussian Christmas Tree, on December 25th. There's no Saint Nick Day feast on the 6th, and there's no romjul until New Year's.


That's eventually what'll happen to a lot more cultures. They will be altered to fit the needs of the globalized economy. I'm not particularly concerned about the loss of pastoral life in Myanmar or whatever, but it ain't going to last.

[astralis]

US culture is much more melting pot and destroys whatever prior culture you came here with. I've got no traditional Hungarian or Norwegian left in me at all.

of course, in any major city now, you can get very, very specific cuisines, some schools will celebrate ramadan and kwanzaa and even lunar new year's. the big summer pop music hit was called "despacito". people send their kids off to learn mandarin.

it's still a melting pot, but it's a different type of melting pot from the 1950s style.

[Gun Grape]

US culture is much more melting pot and destroys whatever prior culture you came here with. I've got no traditional Hungarian or Norwegian left in me at all. I eat Kraft Macaroni and Cheese and watch the NFL like most other Americans, and my Christmas is celebrated with in the bland American style, with a Prussian Christmas Tree, on December 25th. There's no Saint Nick Day feast on the 6th, and there's no romjul until New Year's.

So why don't you start a new "old" tradition and get the family celebrating them again?

Hey, my family celebrates St Barbara's Day

[GVChamp]

of course, in any major city now, you can get very, very specific cuisines, some schools will celebrate ramadan and kwanzaa and even lunar new year's. the big summer pop music hit was called "despacito". people send their kids off to learn mandarin.

it's still a melting pot, but it's a different type of melting pot from the 1950s style.

Sure, and that's all well and good. But it's still a melting pot, and those kind of things are more like cosmetic changes than fundamental shifts in living and economic patterns. It doesn't really matter if the local school has a token celebration for Ramadan or Kwanza...Kwanza celebarations were in vogue more than two decades ago when I was in school, and Ramadan celebrations were added after 9/11 to virtue signal the acceptance of our diverse communities. These were pretty meaningless. No one converted to Islam, no one moved to the projects to be part of the AA community. Instead we bulldozed Cabrini Green to put up gentrified white neighborhoods, Muslims forsook the hijab, and we all went to college, drank a lot, watched Mean Girls and Disney, delayed marriage, and had 2.3 kids.

Mandarin would be more meaningful. But all my Gweilo friends who tried to learn Mandarin failed utterly.

Also, all these distinctions are going to become even less relevant as globalization turns EVERYTHING into a melting pot. Now Muslims don't even need to move to the US to Americanize, because globalization brings the Americanization to them. Do you want to drink in Dubai? You can do that now!

The US assimilates pretty well, so the most meaningful cultural changes in the US have been the decay of the Rust Belt, the suburbanization of the US, women's lib, delay of marriage, the decline of mass media and rise of social media, normalization of out-of-wedlock births, growing dependence upon the US government for alms, the decline of labor unions....etc. Immigration just hasn't really been a factor. The kind of closed societies that screw themselves over with no change does not describe any of the Northwestern European societies or their derivatives, and those cultures tend to be conservative in a lot of ways that are MUCH more harmful than restricting immigration. Relatively homogenous, closed cultures can copy the successful practices of other cultures and innovate without large-scale immigration.

[astralis]

GVChamp,

Sure, and that's all well and good. But it's still a melting pot, and those kind of things are more like cosmetic changes than fundamental shifts in living and economic patterns.

i agree, and from the small-c conservative standpoint, this should be a good thing, yes?

all those fears about multiculturalism-run-amok and the Balkanization of America remain unfounded. that's why i say that America does a good job at integration, and should not fear the inclusion of further immigrants.

the fundamental changes come from technology and your "regular" cultural shifts.

Also, all these distinctions are going to become even less relevant as globalization turns EVERYTHING into a melting pot. Now Muslims don't even need to move to the US to Americanize, because globalization brings the Americanization to them. Do you want to drink in Dubai? You can do that now!

wouldn't go that far, that's the late-90s End-of-History triumphalism/Tom Friedman-globalization argument in a nutshell. much like how you describe the surface/token multiculturalism in the US, that layer of globalized/Americanized culture is just a relatively thin veneer.

[snapper]

Mono-cultures are unhealthy cultures.

That’s why we rotate crops.

That's why multi-generation families are so good.

That’s why we seek a diverse gene pool.

That’s why immigration is so important to our future.

That’s why intolerance is as dangerous as in-breeding.

Poland is the most homogenous nation in Europe and though sure there are arguments they get by quite well. Sure there are over 1m Ukrainians working and studying in pl now but they are like cousins and there is nobody in Poland moaning about Ukrainian migration; my cousin's boyfriend serves at the front in Ukraine though she works in Warsawa. Obviously I would like the Poles in Britain and the Ukrainians in Poland to come home - their homelands need them and would benefit from their return.

I think though that you confuse some peoples rejection of Muslim and African migration to their homelands for "intolerance"; it is not intolerance of any European value but a re-affirmation of the values that kept Poland and other CEE countries alive throughout occupations by Ottomans, Prussians, Austrians, Muscovites and atheist commies. Tolerance should require that we accept and respect their choice to maintain their national Christian identity. The enforcement of 'multiculturalism' on those who reject it by free choice is despotism and betrayal of their freedom of choice.

In Ukraine we have a native Muslim and Jewish population so I do not think the Polish situation or choice is practically applicable. I am as happy and proud to defend the Muslim Tatar (or Afghan) in Ukraine as the Romanian Orthodox or Jewish population being of course a Catholic myself - it is a much more diverse society and suits me fine personally; does not mean I should not respect the views of my Polish brothers and sisters. That is what I understand as "tolerance".

[DOR]

snapper,

Don’t get me wrong: I honestly believe “rejection of Muslim and African migration” is merely intolerance.
Ignorant, racist, xenophobic, bigoted intolerance.

In other words, the polar opposite of reaffirmation of Christian-Judeo values of love and respect for neighbors and enemies alike.

[GVChamp]

I don't see how Nation-States trying to preserve their national identity is bigoted intolerance. Not everyone is the United States.

[DOR]

I don't see how Nation-States trying to preserve their national identity is bigoted intolerance. Not everyone is the United States.

"Preserve national identity" might get a look-see in North-East Asia, but it's still ignorant, racist, xenophobic, bigoted intolerance.

[GVChamp]

To me it looks like the majority of nations are concerned with preserving their national identity. Sarkozy ordered French local governments to have town hall meetings about the French national identity. It's not just Asian states.

[astralis]

it's the basis of what "national identity" is made of. is it of a religious/racial character? there's varying degrees of problematic there.

that's not to say there are other issues involved. i believe in opening up immigration, but on the other hand i don't believe in -unlimited- immigration either...and there's -some- room for cultural considerations in that.

[snapper]

snapper,

Don’t get me wrong: I honestly believe “rejection of Muslim and African migration” is merely intolerance.
Ignorant, racist, xenophobic, bigoted intolerance.

In other words, the polar opposite of reaffirmation of Christian-Judeo values of love and respect for neighbors and enemies alike.

Forcing countries like Poland, where adherence to the Catholic Church is almost part of the national identity, to accept Muslim 'refugees' is disregard of their freedom of choice. It is the enforcement of your bigotry over theirs. Hell I could join the Greek Catholic or Orthodox Church, change the spelling of my surname replacing a "w" for a "v" (they are pronounced the same anyway) and I am as good as any Ukrainian. My 'Polishness' would be gone.

[astralis]

snapper,

not sure where DOR is trying to force any country to do anything...just stating what he believes is the root reason for rejecting Muslim/African migration.