Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The US Recovery

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • gunnut,

    College is not for everyone. Some people don't want to sit in the office all day. Some people are much better working with their hands and tools. Why shove everyone into colleges?

    Instead of saying "college for everyone," we should say "college is only one way to make a great living."

    I have a college degree. My job has nothing to do with my degree. I could have done my job without ever having to go to college. Everything I needed to do my job, I learned on the job or on my own.
    problem is, when people with college degrees make 15K more a year to START WITH...and half the unemployment rate of mere HS graduates...that's a pretty good incentive to go to college, suitable or not.

    all those blue-collar jobs you're talking about, one of the reasons why they've become less and less viable over the years is precisely because their incomes have stagnated and even declined.

    the classical economic argument would be then, "well let them move to places where demand is higher, and wages are higher", but people are not purely economic units.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

    Comment


    • back to the topic of this thread.

      ANOTHER hot jobs report: even the labor force participation rate is up, and wages are up. November/December jobs numbers revised upwards, from hot to blistering. annual 2013 jobs numbers revised upwards.

      ====

      Employers add 257,000 jobs as wages rise - Vox
      Last edited by astralis; 06 Feb 15,, 15:24.
      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
        DOR:

        Last 2-3 years, things seem to have leveled off.
        I assume that's in reference to the trade graph.
        Yep, a near-depression is the single fastest way known to economic man to kill off imports.
        Trust me?
        I'm an economist!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by gunnut View Post

          The biggest lesson I learned from college is that college is not that important.
          But it sure was fun.:)
          To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
            But it sure was fun.:)
            I prefer being a childless yuppie. More money, more space, cleaner, and better cooking.

            On the other hand, I want my metabolism back :(
            "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

            Comment


            • I think we can squeeze in a little bit about debt here. Paul Krugman, whose political commentary I rarely agree with, raises an interesting point in his op ed about why debt isn't so bad and how efforts to lower it all at in some countries have made things worse for people.


              The Opinion Pages | Op-Ed Columnist
              Nobody Understands Debt

              FEB. 9, 2015

              Many economists, including Janet Yellen, view global economic troubles since 2008 largely as a story about “deleveraging” — a simultaneous attempt by debtors almost everywhere to reduce their liabilities. Why is deleveraging a problem? Because my spending is your income, and your spending is my income, so if everyone slashes spending at the same time, incomes go down around the world.

              Or as Ms. Yellen put it in 2009, “Precautions that may be smart for individuals and firms — and indeed essential to return the economy to a normal state — nevertheless magnify the distress of the economy as a whole.”

              So how much progress have we made in returning the economy to that “normal state”? None at all. You see, policy makers have been basing their actions on a false view of what debt is all about, and their attempts to reduce the problem have actually made it worse.

              First, the facts: Last week, the McKinsey Global Institute issued a report titled “Debt and (Not Much) Deleveraging,” which found, basically, that no nation has reduced its ratio of total debt to G.D.P. Household debt is down in some countries, especially in the United States. But it’s up in others, and even where there has been significant private deleveraging, government debt has risen by more than private debt has fallen.

              You might think our failure to reduce debt ratios shows that we aren’t trying hard enough — that families and governments haven’t been making a serious effort to tighten their belts, and that what the world needs is, yes, more austerity. But we have, in fact, had unprecedented austerity. As the International Monetary Fund has pointed out, real government spending excluding interest has fallen across wealthy nations — there have been deep cuts by the troubled debtors of Southern Europe, but there have also been cuts in countries, like Germany and the United States, that can borrow at some of the lowest interest rates in history.

              All this austerity has, however, only made things worse — and predictably so, because demands that everyone tighten their belts were based on a misunderstanding of the role debt plays in the economy.

              You can see that misunderstanding at work every time someone rails against deficits with slogans like “Stop stealing from our kids.” It sounds right, if you don’t think about it: Families who run up debts make themselves poorer, so isn’t that true when we look at overall national debt?

              No, it isn’t. An indebted family owes money to other people; the world economy as a whole owes money to itself. And while it’s true that countries can borrow from other countries, America has actually been borrowing less from abroad since 2008 than it did before, and Europe is a net lender to the rest of the world.

              Because debt is money we owe to ourselves, it does not directly make the economy poorer (and paying it off doesn’t make us richer). True, debt can pose a threat to financial stability — but the situation is not improved if efforts to reduce debt end up pushing the economy into deflation and depression.

              Which brings us to current events, for there is a direct connection between the overall failure to deleverage and the emerging political crisis in Europe.

              European leaders completely bought into the notion that the economic crisis was brought on by too much spending, by nations living beyond their means. The way forward, Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany insisted, was a return to frugality. Europe, she declared, should emulate the famously thrifty Swabian housewife.

              This was a prescription for slow-motion disaster. European debtors did, in fact, need to tighten their belts — but the austerity they were actually forced to impose was incredibly savage. Meanwhile, Germany and other core economies — which needed to spend more, to offset belt-tightening in the periphery — also tried to spend less. The result was to create an environment in which reducing debt ratios was impossible: Real growth slowed to a crawl, inflation fell to almost nothing and outright deflation has taken hold in the worst-hit nations.

              Suffering voters put up with this policy disaster for a remarkably long time, believing in the promises of the elite that they would soon see their sacrifices rewarded. But as the pain went on and on, with no visible progress, radicalization was inevitable. Anyone surprised by the left’s victory in Greece, or the surge of anti-establishment forces in Spain, hasn’t been paying attention.

              Nobody knows what happens next, although bookmakers are now giving better than even odds that Greece will exit the euro. Maybe the damage would stop there, but I don’t believe it — a Greek exit is all too likely to threaten the whole currency project. And if the euro does fail, here’s what should be written on its tombstone: “Died of a bad analogy.
              To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

              Comment


              • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                gunnut,



                problem is, when people with college degrees make 15K more a year to START WITH...and half the unemployment rate of mere HS graduates...that's a pretty good incentive to go to college, suitable or not.

                all those blue-collar jobs you're talking about, one of the reasons why they've become less and less viable over the years is precisely because their incomes have stagnated and even declined.

                the classical economic argument would be then, "well let them move to places where demand is higher, and wages are higher", but people are not purely economic units.
                But then you have to look at what majors and the type of jobs people get after completing college. A degree in chicano studies isn't likely to get you a high paying office job that makes $15k more than an electrician. A degree in computer science will. But not everyone can handle programming. I cannot. I can't program a computer if my life depended on it.

                I have a friend who has a post graduate degree. Can't get a decent paying job. Her major: marine biology. Think about it. Even a post grad science degree can't find a decent paying job. Why? There's very little demand.

                Someone who is equally good at plumbing and coding, and enjoys them equally, then yes, by all means, get a degree and do some coding.

                How about someone who is equally good at chicano studies and plumbing? One takes 4 years of college and thousands of dollars, maybe tens of thousands of dollars to complete. With a very niche demand, to put it mildly. While the other is always in demand and quite practical in every day life.

                We all want to do what we enjoy doing, or studying. But we also have to think about a skill or trade that makes enough money to sustain the life style we want. We don't make the wage scale. The market does. We can't force others to spend money for our services they do not need.

                I am fortunate to have found a job I enjoy, that I'm pretty OK at, and pays decent. It has nothing to do with my college degree. To this day I am not sure if my college degree helped me getting started my line of work.
                "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                  But it sure was fun.:)
                  Not for me. I had a miserable time in college.
                  "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                  Comment


                  • I loved both college and grad school.

                    My studies were directly related to my career path, but to get to a comfortable income level, I had to start from the bottom.

                    US$6,000 (about $14,500 in today’s money) – with a Master’s Degree related to the work – in 1983, then increments of 10-12% a year (+9% real) over the next 30+ years. Of course, I had to move to a place where my skills were more highly valued, not only to get the first job but again to get the next one.

                    The best investments I ever made were getting a passport (and keeping it renewed), and selling my 1967 Mustang to buy an airplane ticket to Asia.
                    Trust me?
                    I'm an economist!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DOR View Post
                      I loved both college and grad school.

                      My studies were directly related to my career path, but to get to a comfortable income level, I had to start from the bottom.

                      US$6,000 (about $14,500 in today’s money) – with a Master’s Degree related to the work – in 1983, then increments of 10-12% a year (+9% real) over the next 30+ years. Of course, I had to move to a place where my skills were more highly valued, not only to get the first job but again to get the next one.

                      The best investments I ever made were getting a passport (and keeping it renewed), and selling my 1967 Mustang to buy an airplane ticket to Asia.
                      You made the move to where the demand is. You are also good at your job and obviously love doing it. You deserve every single penny you make.

                      Some people believe one should make a good living just by having a college degree, regardless of the field. I don't believe so. The subject has to be in demand. If there's no local demand, than relocate to where the demand is.

                      I'm not belittling education or college education. But we have to see that some subjects make more money simply because there's more demand. Otherwise one would be better off learning a trade.
                      "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                      Comment


                      • GN

                        I fully support what you said about going where the opportunities are and making opportunities for oneself. My path was hardly a straight line and had little to do with my poly.sci. major, but it was the most practical path for me at the time.

                        How did college help? In a nutshell it taught me how to make judgements (not always right ones), and if you think about it maybe that's what you got out of college, too.

                        Yes, there are other good ways to go aside from college. You're right about the trades. A smart, reasonably squared away guy can make good money at them. Some get very good and start up businesses. That's how most of the plumbing, HVAC, and electrical companies start, and they can work up to six figure incomes and in some cases seven.
                        To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                        Comment


                        • gunnut,

                          But then you have to look at what majors and the type of jobs people get after completing college. A degree in chicano studies isn't likely to get you a high paying office job that makes $15k more than an electrician. A degree in computer science will. But not everyone can handle programming. I cannot. I can't program a computer if my life depended on it.
                          those figures I put in were likely calculated through the mean. yeah, of course if you get a degree in underwater basket weaving, you're likely not going to make as much after graduation as someone who did well in trade school. for that matter, ol' Zuck didn't finish college either, etc etc.

                          but these are outliers.

                          on -average-, your college graduate will earn significantly more than someone with a GED or even a trade school certification, and face significantly lower levels of unemployment. these days, people are moving to master's programs because again, on average there is a differential between people with a BA/BS and those with a MA/MS.

                          I agree with your prime argument that there are a lot of people not suited for college, and that sometimes college degrees aren't of much use. in the past, we had a huge manufacturing system that employed tens of millions of people on a middle-class lifestyle with only a high school degree (or less), overseen by middle managers that came through the ranks, which in turn were overseen by upper management with college degrees. that economic system no longer exists today, as those tens of millions were replaced with technology.

                          and until we have a systemic education system AND the jobs/salaries that can support people with a non-college degree, we'll continue to see a blind rush to higher-level education regardless of suitability. there's been a slight movement in that regards as manufacturing begins moving back to the US, but it'll be much more niche than it was in the past.

                          Attached Files
                          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                          Comment


                          • I has seemed to me for a long time that an associates degree from 2 yrs junior college will eventually become the standard that a high school diploma now holds. How do you all feel about that?
                            To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                            Comment


                            • by the way, I do wonder what happened to the argument that because of the debt and the Fed, we'd all face hyperinflation by now.

                              courtesy of WaPo.

                              Attached Files
                              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                                by the way, I do wonder what happened to the argument that because of the debt and the Fed, we'd all face hyperinflation by now.

                                courtesy of WaPo.

                                [ATTACH]39194[/ATTACH]
                                That is curious and counter intuitive. It's like the prediction about CO2 causes global warming and banning guns to curb crime.
                                "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X