Originally posted by Versus
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Kosovo Serbs vow to resist deal done in Brussels
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Originally posted by Skywatcher View PostConsidering how pro American the Kosovars and Albanians are now in general, it worked out pretty well for us Americans.
Thucydides is right.
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Originally posted by Mihais View PostBut soon after Melos came the Sicilian disaster.
Originally posted by Versus View PostTrough out our recorded history, the West was always on the Muslim side due to geopolitical reasons. Serbia was always seen by the west as a potential Russian foothold and was always regarded as "little Russians" and treated accordingly, from the 19th century, with the Napoleon and Ottomans, to the 20th century, with Germans and Austro Hungarian Empire, in the second world war with the Nazi's and their satellites and later on with almost entire Europe during the 90es. It has nothing to do with emotions, it is pure interest thing.
It wasn't always so... During the time that the Ottoman Empire was regarded as the 'sick man of Europe' nearly all the 'Powers' supported Balkan liberation - it's just that they were in competition for the left overs of the Ottoman State. In some ways they could be said to still be.
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The only thing the Serbs did wrong was not to promise NATO to keep the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. There's only one reason why NATO started the Kosovo War - to keep the Kosovo ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, to the point of granting their independence.
It's not trading 800,000 ethnic Albanians for 7 million Serbs. It was to keep 800,000 refugees from our lands.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostIt's not trading 800,000 ethnic Albanians for 7 million Serbs. It was to keep 800,000 refugees from our lands.No such thing as a good tax - Churchill
To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.
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Originally posted by Skywatcher View PostTouche.
Though we did manage to get out of Iraq in more or less one piece.
Then you might start to feel a bit like the Serbs in the 70-80's and from then there's a slow walk into Kosovo of the 90's.Those who know don't speak
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36
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Originally posted by snapper View PostI appreciate your learning my friend.
Welcome back!
It wasn't always so... During the time that the Ottoman Empire was regarded as the 'sick man of Europe' nearly all the 'Powers' supported Balkan liberation - it's just that they were in competition for the left overs of the Ottoman State. In some ways they could be said to still be.
Well, I used to think like that until I got my hands on the Vienna's archives, that tell a different story. They were in competition for the "Grand Prize", that is without a shadow of a doubt, however, speaking more specifically their stance towards Serbs and Serbia was (is) ranging from being hostile to being completely indifferent. This was best shown at the congress in Vienna, in 1815, when the Serbian delegates were running from door to door, begging the great powers to stop the annihilation in Serbia. I am sorry to say, the response from Lord Castlereagh was cold as a grave. He actually passed by our delegation and he didn't even look at them. No one showed any particular interest from the western powers, but on the other hand Russia did, but its resolution was rejected. Later history has even more examples of hidden interests, agendas and plans.
But the greatest tragedy of all, for us, is the inability of our elite to form sound and coherent stance. For me that was, is and it will be the primary reason of our demise.Last edited by Versus; 25 May 13,, 19:32.
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Later on, during the 1816-1817, the secret Greek society, named Heteria (I am not sure if I got the name right in English), was preparing the all out rebellion in the Balkans, against Ottoman Empire. At the time, the leader of the First Serbian uprising, Karadjordje Petrovic was in exile, in Russia where he came in contact with the members of Heteria and later on he joined them. It was at that time,in the begging of 1817, when the deal was struck, between him and the Heteria to start an large scale operation that would free the Balkans form Ottoman rule. After the arrangement was set, Karadjordje Petrovic as the leader of the first Serbian uprising and Naum Krnar, the member of Heteria went to Serbia to start the operation. However, their plan was broken and they both were assassinated upon arrival in Serbia. The Vienna records show that the Austrian intelligence was keeping a close eye on the events, so when this group crossed the border on June 28th 1817, the warrant for their arrest was already issued on June 24th. However the warrant arrived on July 9th and the search began. But it was too late, since this group was already in Serbia so the plan B was initiated, which was to assassinate both of them. It happened on July 13th 1817 and both of their heads were cut off and sent to Istanbul.
Historically, the blame for the murder was placed on us, on the leader of Second Serbian Uprising, Milos Obrenovic and it was placed in the context of internal struggle for power, since Karadjordje was the direct competition to Milos Obrenovic. But, new evidence shows that this thing was a lot bigger and it caused concerns among great powers, especially Great Britain, which gained control over United States of Ionian Islands, after congress of Vienna in 1815. No doubt that the all out uprising would give the cause for the Russia to intervene, especially because the Greeks and the Serbs were Orthodox Christians just as the Russians were. So with this murder, the events were delayed until 1821 when the Greek uprising happened, but this time with the full support of Great Britain and France, which secured the British interests in Greece.Last edited by Versus; 26 May 13,, 16:54.
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In order to get the true answer to this question, you need to look at the question or more accurately, the problem from all sides.
So the answer than would be, that the reason for not letting the northern part of Kosovo become the part of Serbia, is that it would undermine the entire post cold war NATO strategy and thus the reason for NATO existence. How come?
The entire reason for NATO's existence revolves around humanitarian intervention ethos, which was formed during the civil war in Yugoslavia. So changing the context of that war, would call into the question the humanitarian intervention ethos. Again, how is that?
The context of the civil war in Yugoslavia revolves around construction, that Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic, wanted to create the Great Serbia out of former republics, which declared independence from Yugoslavia, and that he used the Serbs that were living in those republics as a tool to do just that. He boosted up the Serbian nationalism which than turned the Serbs in those republics hostile toward newly formed governments, and they started to commit atrocities and ethnic cleansing, in order to create Great Serbia. Other nations, faced with this monstrous plan, fought heroically against this menace, but they were weak to win. So the NATO stepped in and aided them in their just cause and in the name of humanity, freedom and justice aka the higher morals and together they were victorious over horrid Serbian monster.
Everything that Serbs did was wrong and everything that others did was just and right. Therefore, Serbs have no rights to demand anything in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo, heck why not, they don't have the right to demand anything in Serbia as well, and nothing should be given to them since the Serbs are evil.
So by giving them the northern Kosovo is wrong, because they don't have the rights to anything, since they are evil and giving them parts of Kosovo would be an evil thing to do and NATO, since it stands on the side of light and justice, can't allow that.
The Serbs are so evil because they love Russia and Russia is the Empire of Evil. Moreover, they dwell on some stupid myths like Kosovo battle which they lost so they are celebrating the defeat instead of victory which is pathetic and stupid thing to do. They are evil because they are losers. The barbaric horde from the East that holds no value and it is the destroyer of the worlds.
This is the ethos and this is the context that must be kept true since it gives the reason for NATO to exist, since the world is full of pathetic losers with the delusion of grandeur whom are up to no good. They are the threat to democracy and freedom and therefore NATO must exist to defend those values.
So everything that doesn't belong in this frame is suppressed and rejected, because if the real arguments were accepted the whole construction would simply fall apart, because it is based, not as much on a lie, but more than anything, on misinterpretation of the facts.
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At the end of the day there are only what, 30 or 40 thousand Serbs in Northern Kosovo versus how many hundreds of millions of people in the E.U and the rest of the former Yugoslavia? Harsh as it may seem in the long term/big picture their want's and desires are largely irrelevant and they have only three choices:
1) Accept their fate and make the best of it by working with Kosovo Albanian majority, Serbia and the EU.
2) Sulk in their own ghetto and rot in poverty until the last of their children move elsewhere for a better life
3) Leave Kosovo and move to Serbia proper en mass.
Entirely up to them which option they choose, I just hope for they choose wisely. (P.S. they probably won't - choose wisely that is but hey I can hope).Last edited by Monash; 27 May 13,, 13:10.If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.
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Originally posted by Mihais View PostYou did not invaded China or India,for the analogy to be complete. :) And I don't think that's even the right sort of analogy.IMO that will be when you have gangs running rampart in the South and SE USA,with native people(in the sense of those who already live there and build the place) migrating to safer areas elsewhere.
Both might be remotely possible, but sane people won't pay it any attention.
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Originally posted by Monash View PostAt the end of the day there are only what, 30 or 40 thousand Serbs in Northern Kosovo versus how many hundreds of millions of people in the E.U and the rest of the former Yugoslavia? Harsh as it may seem in the long term/big picture their want's and desires are largely irrelevant and they have only three choices:
1) Accept their fate and make the best of it by working with Kosovo Albanian majority, Serbia and the EU.
2) Sulk in their own ghetto and rot in poverty until the last of their children move elsewhere for a better life
3) Leave Kosovo and move to Serbia proper en mass.
Entirely up to them which option they choose, I just hope for they choose wisely. (P.S. they probably won't - choose wisely that is but hey I can hope).
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