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  • #31
    If you need to negotiate what you're going to give away just so you can sit down at the table to negotiate, you've already lost, you just don't know it yet.

    Is anyone else amused that the Israelis are the only ones that are asked for concessions before negotiations? No one even expects the Hamas OR the PA (and have no doubt, they do not speak for each other) to make concessions. Hell, Hamas can't even be trusted to not fire rockets into Israel, something they PROMISED they wouldn't do!

    Even if Netanyahu and Abbas actually do reach an agreement (highly unlikely), it still has no validity in Gaza, and we've solved absolutely nothing.
    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
      Even if Netanyahu and Abbas actually do reach an agreement (highly unlikely), it still has no validity in Gaza, and we've solved absolutely nothing.
      Why do you say nothing ?

      The WB would be solved. That leaves Gaza next.

      Comment


      • #33
        Because then you would have a three-state solution, and not a two-state solution. I've advocated repeatedly for a three-state solution, but the Palestinians want it all or nothing. As long as Hamas in Gaza can't speak for the PA in the West Bank and vice versa, there will never be a peace based on a two-state solution.

        I also think the two-state solution is horribly flawed merely from a geographical point of view, but then no one ever actually decides to consider logic when dealing with the Palestinians, anyway......
        Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

        Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

        Comment


        • #34
          A reconciliation has to occur between the PA & Hamas first. If the PA is seen to be successful then Hamas gets weaker. Hamas is seen as an alternative because the PA is not delivering to expectations. They strike me more a the protest vote getters.

          You will bring up this land bridge between the two but i'm not sure that's mandatory.

          Comment


          • #35
            Look at Israel's "partners for peace": A PA Premier that has spent more time illegally in office after his term expired than his legal term, a PA Prime Minister who was in office less than a month before he resigned due to overbearing pressure from said Premier (he then retracted his resignation), and Hamas, a terror organization that has called, is calling and will continue calling for Israel's demise, which despite every single cease-fire agreement so far launched 4 more rockets into Israel just last week.

            I'm not even going to begin to get into the meat and bones of the actual negotiations and the problems there. Until the other side can come up with legit, valid partners for peace, any agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on or the ink used to sign it.
            Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

            Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
              Look at Israel's "partners for peace": A PA Premier that has spent more time illegally in office after his term expired than his legal term, a PA Prime Minister who was in office less than a month before he resigned due to overbearing pressure from said Premier (he then retracted his resignation), and Hamas, a terror organization that has called, is calling and will continue calling for Israel's demise, which despite every single cease-fire agreement so far launched 4 more rockets into Israel just last week.

              I'm not even going to begin to get into the meat and bones of the actual negotiations and the problems there. Until the other side can come up with legit, valid partners for peace, any agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on or the ink used to sign it.
              The West Bank under the PA has been peaceful. I haven't heard of any attacks against Israel launched from there. In comparison to Gaza it's a utopia. They've earned their right to negotiations. As for 2 state vs 3 state or 20 state for that matter it doesn't matter. The reality is you're facing an increasingly fractured opposition and that's just the way it is.
              In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

              Leibniz

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                The West Bank under the PA has been peaceful.
                You sure about that? According an official report (in Hebrew) by Irgun Hatzalah Yuhda/Shomron, in the month of May, there were 1,175 attacks against Jews in the West Bank and Jerusalem, leading to 61 Jewish casualties. There were 1062 cases of stones thrown against Jewish vehicles or the IDF, and 206 cases of Molotov cocktails thrown, sometimes in conjunction with the stone throwing.



                Gush Etzion region: 484 incidents including 420 cases of stone throwing and 47 Molotov cocktails. 23 citizens and soldiers injured.
                Binyamin region: 345 incidents including 322 cases of stone throwing and 21 Molotov cocktails. 11 citizens and soldiers injured.
                Yehuda region: 217 incidents including 208 cases of stone throwing and 11 Molotov cocktails. 10 citizens and soldiers injured, including four soldiers nearly burned to death when a Molotov was thrown into the vehicle they were in.
                Shomron region: 75 incidents including 64 cases of stone throwing and 11 Molotov cocktails. 6 citizens and soldiers injured.
                Jerusalem region: 54 incidents including 48 cases of stone throwing and 116 Molotov cocktails. 12 citizens and police officers injured.

                It is important to note that there have been cases of stone throwing or Molotov cocktail attacks not reported, since it is seen as futile.

                See this beautiful two year-old (now three-year old) child?



                On Thursday, March 14, the car she was in, being driven by her mother and with her and her two sisters inside, was attacked by stone-throwing Arabs, causing the mother to lose control and crash into a parked truck:



                A fist-sized rock thrown by Arabs hit her directly. She's currently in the pediatric and youth unit of the Beit Levinstein rehabilitation facility in Ra'anana and only semi-conscious, having celebrated her third birthday in a coma.

                She is merely one case, there are hundreds more, including at least one more person in a coma, and many others lightly and moderately wounded.

                Lets go back to April 30, a day before the official tally: In Tapuach Junction, an Israeli man, Evyatar Borowsky, 32, a father of five from the settlement of Yitzhar, was stabbed multiple times, leading to his death, by a Palestinian man.

                Evyatar Borowsky's son over his father at the funeral:



                I haven't heard of any attacks against Israel launched from there.
                Just because you don't hear it, doesn't mean it's not happening. Hell, it's barely reported in most Israeli media, because most Israeli media is extremely left wing.

                In comparison to Gaza it's a utopia.
                Because the friendly, peace loving people in Gaza aren't in close contact with Israelis (Jewish or otherwise). Just last week, however, just to remind us that they still exist, in a clear and open violation of the cease-fire following Pillar of Defense, and not for the first time, they sent rockets our way.

                They've earned their right to negotiations.
                I beg to differ

                As for 2 state vs 3 state or 20 state for that matter it doesn't matter. The reality is you're facing an increasingly fractured opposition and that's just the way it is.
                Let's say you want to rent a place that's under joint ownership. You talk to one party, agree on a price and sign the lease. The other party doesn't want anything to do with you, doesn't recognize the validity of the lease and hasn't granted you permission to rent the property. Unless both parties agree, you're not getting into that property. Same here. Until the opposition can coalesce into one unit, at least for the sake of negotiations, or alternatively, agree that there never will be a union and dissolve the partnership, allowing each side to negotiate on its own, forget about actual results, there is no point to negotiations.
                Attached Files
                Last edited by bigross86; 30 Jun 13,, 22:53.
                Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                  You sure about that?
                  Yes I'm sure about that. In comparison to your other borders, the West Bank is a utopia. You probably never were and certainly are not now dealing with a single entity. If Israel is determined to have peace then it needs to negotiate with each entity and that is achievable with the PA. If Israel isn't determined to have peace then continue colonising the West Bank and deal with far more attacks against the colonisers than you currently have. It's not rocket science.
                  In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                  Leibniz

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                    Yes I'm sure about that. In comparison to your other borders, the West Bank is a utopia.
                    A) That's not your original claim, b) that's not necessarily true.

                    Your original claim was "The West Bank under the PA has been peaceful." I'm sorry, I don't call 206 Molotov cocktails and 60+ injured peaceful. Let's jump across the Mediterranean a bit: Would you consider 200+ Molotov cocktails against the Turks in West Cyprus "peaceful"? Now let's jump a bit to the east: Would you call 200+ Molotov cocktails against US forces in Afghanistan "peaceful"?

                    Considering the name of the Molotov cocktail and the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement which led to quite the opposite of peace, I find your insistence that 200+ Molotov cocktails is peaceful slightly amusing and ironic....

                    Let's examine your second claim, that Israel's other borders are less peaceful:

                    Jordanian border: There haven't been many memorable attacks from Jordan recently, especially in the month of May, the month being discussed and compared.
                    Syrian border: The occasional mortar round or gunfire from the Syrian Rebels or the Syrian Army lands inside Israel. This has led to 0 injured and Israel has only retaliated 2-3 times, IIRC
                    Lebanese border: There haven't been many memorable attacks from Lebanon recently, especially in the month of May, the month being discussed and compared.
                    Egyptian border: There haven't been many memorable attacks from Egypt recently, especially in the month of May, the month being discussed and compared.

                    You probably never were and certainly are not now dealing with a single entity.
                    Under Arafat Israel dealt with a single entity. The Oslo Accords let to ~1,600 Jewish deaths (I don't remember the exact figure).

                    If Israel is determined to have peace then it needs to negotiate with each entity and that is achievable with the PA. If Israel isn't determined to have peace then continue colonising the West Bank and deal with far more attacks against the colonisers than you currently have. It's not rocket science.
                    You are ignoring the example I gave you above. I agree with you that Israel must negotiate with the PA, but the negotiations, even if they do lead to an actual piece treaty, will not be valid. This is because the PA cannot speak for Gaza, and the PA insists on a state that contains within it both Gaza and the West Bank. If the PA agrees to negotiate solely over the West Bank, then a treaty can be hammered out, quite quickly, even.

                    Once again, I'm not even beginning to discuss the inherent problems in the actual negotiation process which stand in the way of peace. I'm talking about issues on the Palestinian side that lead the negotiations to being effectively useless and worthless, even if some sort of deal can be worked out.
                    Last edited by bigross86; 30 Jun 13,, 23:27.
                    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I don't call 206 Molotov cocktails and 60+ injured peaceful.
                      How many were on Israeli vs settler targets, in Israel proper vs settlements? Of those directed at settlements, how many were connected with the more violent and right wing of the settlers. How many come after a settler attack vs how many precede a settler attack?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by zraver View Post
                        How many were on Israeli vs settler targets,
                        All took place in the West Bank, and all settlers in the West Bank are Israelis.

                        in Israel proper vs settlements?
                        All took place in the West Bank

                        Of those directed at settlements, how many were connected with the more violent and right wing of the settlers.
                        They were all directed at settlements. There is no way of knowing how many were connected, but considering the vast majority of stone throwing and attacks were on moving cars, I don't think the Palestinians were making that distinction, either.

                        How many come after a settler attack vs how many precede a settler attack?
                        Once again, there is no way of making that distinction.

                        However, you are ignoring the point, and every single question I just answered is irrelevant. I'm not looking for reasons behind the unrest or someone to blame. Pari's claim was that the West Bank was peaceful. I argue otherwise. Until you can argue that 200+ Molotov cocktails and 60+ injured in one month is peaceful, then Pari's claim doesn't hold water.
                        Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                        Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Pari's claim was WB is more peaceful then the other areas where you border with the Pals.

                          At least this is how I got it. It is one thing to be strict about what's written, and totally another when you nitpick just to refute the claim.
                          I don't believe there is anyone, especially on WAB thinking WB is Finland.
                          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                          • #43
                            Looking at the month of May 2013, there were 200+ Molotov cocktails and 60+ injured in the West Bank. During the same period, there were 0 Molotov cocktails, 0 rockets and 0 casualties from Gaza.

                            Comparatively, it would show the West Bank is for more dangerous. Now, no one is disagreeing that Gaza is extremely dangerous, and given the opportunity, would absolutely restart hostilities against Israel. But to go from there to claim that the West Bank is peaceful, which is Pari's original claim, is a non-starter.

                            Once again, Pari's original claim is that the West Bank is peaceful. I asked "Are you sure about that", and provided proof to the contrary. Pari replied "Yes I'm sure about that. In comparison to your other borders, the West Bank is a utopia." Pari's argument is now twofold:

                            1) Pari is now arguing that 200+ Molotov cocktails and 60+ injured in the month of May still means the West Bank is peaceful.

                            2) Pari is trying to shift the shape of the argument, now arguing that even if the West Bank is not peaceful (though he doesn't admit that), it still is more peaceful than Gaza.

                            The responses, once again, are:

                            1) According to what metric do you consider 200+ Molotov cocktails and 60+ injured in one month peaceful

                            2) Looking at the numbers of the month of May, 2013, there have been hundreds more Molotov cocktail attacks in the West Bank than in Gaza, Over a thousand more stone throwing incidents and dozens more injured in the West Bank than in Gaza. The only place Gaza and the West Bank seem to achieve parity in the month of May is that neither region launched rockets into Israel.

                            Now, I've admitted that Gaza is the much more dangerous region out of the two, if they were given the opportunity, but they aren't given that opportunity. Having done a decent job of shutting down the active and ongoing hostilities out of Gaza, that would mean the West Bank is the more dangerous at the moment. But even if we decide to resolve/ignore argument (2), we are still left with the first argument, that 200+ Molotov cocktails and 60+ injured in one month can still be considered "peaceful".

                            I beg to differ, and I dare any of you to prove it to be otherwise, that it actually is "peaceful". As far as I'm concerned, that is the only real point of contention here, and one that has yet to be answered.
                            Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                            Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              This originated between you and Pari, and will let you sort the details, but, from my perspective and from the perception we get it is like Pari said. In general Gaza is way more dangerous then WB. Look at historic data, not at one month period.

                              If you want to argue new trends and that something changed and now WB is more hostile, you will need a larger period to comment on it.

                              In general, in the past, WB seemed like more peaceful part then Gaza.

                              Would you argue Sweden or UK are not safe if we come out with the statistics from a selected period of time from there (one week during riots)?
                              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                                All took place in the West Bank, and all settlers in the West Bank are Israelis.



                                All took place in the West Bank



                                They were all directed at settlements. There is no way of knowing how many were connected, but considering the vast majority of stone throwing and attacks were on moving cars, I don't think the Palestinians were making that distinction, either.



                                Once again, there is no way of making that distinction.

                                However, you are ignoring the point, and every single question I just answered is irrelevant. I'm not looking for reasons behind the unrest or someone to blame. Pari's claim was that the West Bank was peaceful. I argue otherwise. Until you can argue that 200+ Molotov cocktails and 60+ injured in one month is peaceful, then Pari's claim doesn't hold water.
                                You could make that distinction, you just don't want to. It is important information to help delineate between cases. Becasue say for example 101 of the molotovs follow settler violence, then it would appear that the peace breakers were Israeli, not Palestinian in which case the WB would be "peaceful if not for violent settlers. Not exactly the type of image you want others to have now is it.

                                http://www.imemc.org/article/65457

                                Seems at least some of those Molotovs, as well as shootings and kidnappings (literally kidnapping- abducting children) was done by Israelis and the IDF... so who is breaking the peace?
                                Last edited by zraver; 01 Jul 13,, 14:07.

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