Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Indonesian president vows to outgun Australia - run and hide BF

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
    Yes. For a grownup with a law degree she seemed awfully fragile. I've met one or two Singaporeans who couldn't stomach robust disagreement (and some who could), but she seemed an extreme case.
    St Gerorge's shoes, I remember several here who was trying to tell me that taking off and landing fighter jets on a highway besides the airbase is an indication of military prowness.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      St Gerorge's shoes, I remember several here who was trying to tell me that taking off and landing fighter jets on a highway besides the airbase is an indication of military prowness.
      Possibly misconstrued? I assume she was saying that it was a contingency plan/alternate site?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Bigfella View Post

        Funnily enough, when I tried to explain this on these boards to a Singaporean who posted a breathless Straits Times article about the nation mobilizing to meet the threat of a combined Malaysian/Indonesian military exercise she got very huffy.
        there can be a huge difference between countries acting in unison on an exercise and doing it for real..... :)
        Linkeden:
        http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
        http://cofda.wordpress.com/

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by chanjyj View Post
          Possibly misconstrued? I assume she was saying that it was a contingency plan/alternate site?
          Actually, she was on my side. Her boyfriend told her that no one with real military experience would be impress.

          Runways are soft kills. If the enemy is smart ... and one must always assume that they are, then they will return again and again to finish the job and that means killing the engineers as well as the hangers and anything that could get planes to a launch point, including roads and fuel depots.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
            there can be a huge difference between countries acting in unison on an exercise and doing it for real..... :)
            My point precisely.
            sigpic

            Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
              Indonesia is very focused on staying moderate - ie follow the pre-erdogan tuirkish model.
              Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
              The real issue is what you end up with. In my ideal world the likes of Erdogan don't exist, but in the real world using him as an example for radicals is far form the worst idea going around.
              Erdogan certainly supports some Islamist ideas but wouldn't calling him extremist be a stretch. Or am I just reading both of you wrong?

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by ajhax View Post
                Erdogan certainly supports some Islamist ideas but wouldn't calling him extremist be a stretch. Or am I just reading both of you wrong?
                yes, you are a little :) but thats probably just due to the usual internel cross cultural losses in translation of 3 different peoples thought bubbles.

                and I'm probably about to make the communication disconnect worse. :)

                IMO there are 4 centres of influence in the ME

                Saudi Arabia - a perpetual claimant to being the islamic religious centre of the ME and determined to maintain that power
                Egypt, the historical claimant harking back to "Pharonic" glory
                Turkey - the historical cross roads between east and west and which brings a unique "constantinople view" of accommodation. in real terms the only nation in the region practising one of the abrahmic faiths that truly structured national intent and its poltics around moderate secular concepts
                Iran - the spoiler - intent on disrupting the other 3.

                Turkey under Erdogan is not the same as Turkey under Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, its not the same as Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono in Indonesia, or Malaysia, or any of the moderate GCC's
                Turkey pre-erdogan was much easier to deal with under the crossroads model but has now embraced a bit more focus and intent towards its majority faith - and that injects a degree of volatility and forward planning as predictability and diplomatic behaviour are more fluid - that doesn't make erdogan a radical - but it does make other players in the region and external to the region a bit more nervous and cautious

                Erdogan still wants to maintain Turkey as the central power in the ME, but is emphasising a religious islamic based footprint as well - they're still secular, but more weighted to reinforcing commitment to Islam rather than being a place of calm for any abrahamic practitioners....
                Last edited by gf0012-aust; 11 May 13,, 02:03.
                Linkeden:
                http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
                http://cofda.wordpress.com/

                Comment


                • #53
                  From my POV Turkey is still far more stable and moderate than anything else we are seeing now short of the Maldives (which is not a fair comparison considering the multitude of differences between them).

                  Erdogan or no Erdogan, the Turkish masses are still going to maintain the status quo due to the simple fact that they are used to years of pre-Erdogan governance and have settled happily that into their culture. It is going to take some fair work to affect their mindset.

                  In addition, I see the Turkish Military is peculiar in that it acts as a stabilising force against Islamism. The 1971, 1997 coups all have elements suggesting that they were initiated was for fear of excessive Islamic influence.
                  Last edited by chanjyj; 10 May 13,, 22:16.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    outgun Australia??, that ain't hard to do, just buy more guns than Australia has. lol
                    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by omon View Post
                      outgun Australia??, that ain't hard to do, just buy more guns than Australia has. lol
                      Judging by the active personnel, assuming they all have guns...

                      Even given how strict Aussies are about gun control, Indonesian military should have more guns then the whole continent.
                      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by ajhax View Post
                        Erdogan certainly supports some Islamist ideas but wouldn't calling him extremist be a stretch. Or am I just reading both of you wrong?
                        Yes, you are.

                        My dislike of Erdogan has two aspects. The first is his religiosity. I simply don't like politicians whose policies are closely informed by their religious views. That he has dragged Turkey away from the secular ideal of Ataturk is a bad thing as far as I am concerned. I don't see him as a 'radical islamist', but an 'islamist' nonetheless. Don't like 'em. Never will.

                        Aspect two is his increasingly heavy handed approach to sectors of society that oppose him. Turkey has a terrible record on treatment of journalists. He is also engaged in a concerted campaign to strip the Military of its independence. I have a fair bit of contempt for the past behaviour of the Turkish military and I don't doubt that some of those being removed are guilty of anti-democratic plotting. I seriously doubt, however, that all those being targeted are. If what I have read is correct there are strong suspicions that some have been set up. I would hasten to add that Erdogan didn't invent political thuggishness in Turkey, but his behaviour is a distinctly negative development & indicative of broader negative developments.

                        There is, however, an upside. Thus far Erdogan seems to have been a committed democrat (with the above qualifications) and has led successful economic reforms. He may also have secured a peace settlement with the Kurds, thought we will have to wait to see if that bears fruit. Further, Erdogan has become something of an example to more radical islamists in other parts of the world. To me this may be his most important achievement. People who had previously thought democracy to be an impediment to their ideals now have an example of an islamist who is a committed democrat. Sadly islamist ideas aren't just going to go away, so I would rather they be 'housetrained' to fit into a democratic system than pose a constant threat from outside. To paraphrase former US President Lyndon Baines Johnson, I'd rather have them inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in.

                        My hope is that radical groups in Indonesia & elsewhere take a path closer to Erdogan than the Taliban.
                        sigpic

                        Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Army in Turkey had too much power vested for a democracy.

                          Stripping that power might prove good for Turkey in the long run. Maybe not the best option, or maybe kind of a radical cut, but had to be done.

                          Erdogan and his policies can be changed when Turks express such a wish. So nothing bad there.

                          What is really odd, to me at least, is how religiosity is proportional with economic growth. Always thought it would be the other way around.

                          Now if we speak of secularism or human rights of Turkish society, they still fare better then those in their immediate surrounding.
                          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                            Army in Turkey had too much power vested for a democracy.
                            agreed

                            Stripping that power might prove good for Turkey in the long run. Maybe not the best option, or maybe kind of a radical cut, but had to be done.
                            Depends what takes its place. An independent military prepared to defend democracy against all threats - count me in. A cowed military beholden to AKP - cure worse than disease.

                            Erdogan and his policies can be changed when Turks express such a wish. So nothing bad there.
                            Well that is the big test. The danger is that he gradually takes Turkey down a road where elections are effectively rigged. Unfortunately last time I checked Turkey's opposition was a rabble. The longer that goes on the more threat that path gets taken.

                            What is really odd, to me at least, is how religiosity is proportional with economic growth. Always thought it would be the other way around.
                            Don't know if that holds universally doc. It just happens that Erdogan adopted the sort of liberalizing free market policies that would have a certain type of American drooling....if only he was torturing & murdering leftists rather than lifting band on the wearing of headscarves. Not sure religiosity is always such a friend to economics.

                            Now if we speak of secularism or human rights of Turkish society, they still fare better then those in their immediate surrounding.
                            Yes, but I've never been a fan of that sort of comparison. The failures of your neighbours should never be an excuse for your own failures. The standard any nation should aspire to is the best it can achieve, not sitting above some sort of 'regional average'.
                            sigpic

                            Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                              Depends what takes its place. An independent military prepared to defend democracy against all threats - count me in. A cowed military beholden to AKP - cure worse than disease.
                              Turkish Army is a major NATO one, I doubt it will turn into bodyguards to the political elites.

                              Well that is the big test. The danger is that he gradually takes Turkey down a road where elections are effectively rigged. Unfortunately last time I checked Turkey's opposition was a rabble. The longer that goes on the more threat that path gets taken.
                              Weak opposition is the biggest threat to any democracy. Not having a "corrector" is bad. Hope they will regain strength.

                              Don't know if that holds universally doc. It just happens that Erdogan adopted the sort of liberalizing free market policies that would have a certain type of American drooling....if only he was torturing & murdering leftists rather than lifting band on the wearing of headscarves. Not sure religiosity is always such a friend to economics.
                              I think I said the same. Oh well is late here.

                              Yes, but I've never been a fan of that sort of comparison. The failures of your neighbours should never be an excuse for your own failures. The standard any nation should aspire to is the best it can achieve, not sitting above some sort of 'regional average'.
                              I hate that comparison, too, but Turkey has 3 EU members as neighbors. And still fares somewhat better. At least in my eyes.
                              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by chanjyj View Post
                                From my POV Turkey is still far more stable and moderate than anything else we are seeing now short of the Maldives (which is not a fair comparison considering the multitude of differences between them).
                                Bad example. Maldives may have been stable until recently, but it is far from moderate. Its interpretation of Islam has been traditionally very conservative, which is ironic considering the country's main source of income is kafir tourists.

                                Erdogan or no Erdogan, the Turkish masses are still going to maintain the status quo due to the simple fact that they are used to years of pre-Erdogan governance and have settled happily that into their culture. It is going to take some fair work to affect their mindset.
                                You'd be surprised how effectively Saudi wahabis can radicalise Muslim societies that were previously very liberal. Take the example of Chechnya, where Islam was traditionally Sufi for 400 years. In only a generation, Saudi-funded mosques have spread their poison and now Salafism is the dominant ideology. IMO the only bulwark against this in Turkey has been the army, as you've pointed out.

                                The Indonesian members here know much better, but from what I've heard, Saudi-funded radicalization is transforming Indonesia too. It's especially sad for some of us since it is wiping out the last traces of Sanskrit culture outside India.
                                Last edited by cataphract; 11 May 13,, 02:57.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X