Originally posted by Bigfella
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Indonesian president vows to outgun Australia - run and hide BF
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostSt Gerorge's shoes, I remember several here who was trying to tell me that taking off and landing fighter jets on a highway besides the airbase is an indication of military prowness.
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Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
Funnily enough, when I tried to explain this on these boards to a Singaporean who posted a breathless Straits Times article about the nation mobilizing to meet the threat of a combined Malaysian/Indonesian military exercise she got very huffy.
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Originally posted by chanjyj View PostPossibly misconstrued? I assume she was saying that it was a contingency plan/alternate site?
Runways are soft kills. If the enemy is smart ... and one must always assume that they are, then they will return again and again to finish the job and that means killing the engineers as well as the hangers and anything that could get planes to a launch point, including roads and fuel depots.
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Originally posted by gf0012-aust View PostIndonesia is very focused on staying moderate - ie follow the pre-erdogan tuirkish model.Originally posted by Bigfella View PostThe real issue is what you end up with. In my ideal world the likes of Erdogan don't exist, but in the real world using him as an example for radicals is far form the worst idea going around.
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Originally posted by ajhax View PostErdogan certainly supports some Islamist ideas but wouldn't calling him extremist be a stretch. Or am I just reading both of you wrong?
and I'm probably about to make the communication disconnect worse. :)
IMO there are 4 centres of influence in the ME
Saudi Arabia - a perpetual claimant to being the islamic religious centre of the ME and determined to maintain that power
Egypt, the historical claimant harking back to "Pharonic" glory
Turkey - the historical cross roads between east and west and which brings a unique "constantinople view" of accommodation. in real terms the only nation in the region practising one of the abrahmic faiths that truly structured national intent and its poltics around moderate secular concepts
Iran - the spoiler - intent on disrupting the other 3.
Turkey under Erdogan is not the same as Turkey under Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, its not the same as Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono in Indonesia, or Malaysia, or any of the moderate GCC's
Turkey pre-erdogan was much easier to deal with under the crossroads model but has now embraced a bit more focus and intent towards its majority faith - and that injects a degree of volatility and forward planning as predictability and diplomatic behaviour are more fluid - that doesn't make erdogan a radical - but it does make other players in the region and external to the region a bit more nervous and cautious
Erdogan still wants to maintain Turkey as the central power in the ME, but is emphasising a religious islamic based footprint as well - they're still secular, but more weighted to reinforcing commitment to Islam rather than being a place of calm for any abrahamic practitioners....Last edited by gf0012-aust; 11 May 13,, 02:03.
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From my POV Turkey is still far more stable and moderate than anything else we are seeing now short of the Maldives (which is not a fair comparison considering the multitude of differences between them).
Erdogan or no Erdogan, the Turkish masses are still going to maintain the status quo due to the simple fact that they are used to years of pre-Erdogan governance and have settled happily that into their culture. It is going to take some fair work to affect their mindset.
In addition, I see the Turkish Military is peculiar in that it acts as a stabilising force against Islamism. The 1971, 1997 coups all have elements suggesting that they were initiated was for fear of excessive Islamic influence.Last edited by chanjyj; 10 May 13,, 22:16.
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Originally posted by omon View Postoutgun Australia??, that ain't hard to do, just buy more guns than Australia has. lol
Even given how strict Aussies are about gun control, Indonesian military should have more guns then the whole continent.No such thing as a good tax - Churchill
To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.
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Originally posted by ajhax View PostErdogan certainly supports some Islamist ideas but wouldn't calling him extremist be a stretch. Or am I just reading both of you wrong?
My dislike of Erdogan has two aspects. The first is his religiosity. I simply don't like politicians whose policies are closely informed by their religious views. That he has dragged Turkey away from the secular ideal of Ataturk is a bad thing as far as I am concerned. I don't see him as a 'radical islamist', but an 'islamist' nonetheless. Don't like 'em. Never will.
Aspect two is his increasingly heavy handed approach to sectors of society that oppose him. Turkey has a terrible record on treatment of journalists. He is also engaged in a concerted campaign to strip the Military of its independence. I have a fair bit of contempt for the past behaviour of the Turkish military and I don't doubt that some of those being removed are guilty of anti-democratic plotting. I seriously doubt, however, that all those being targeted are. If what I have read is correct there are strong suspicions that some have been set up. I would hasten to add that Erdogan didn't invent political thuggishness in Turkey, but his behaviour is a distinctly negative development & indicative of broader negative developments.
There is, however, an upside. Thus far Erdogan seems to have been a committed democrat (with the above qualifications) and has led successful economic reforms. He may also have secured a peace settlement with the Kurds, thought we will have to wait to see if that bears fruit. Further, Erdogan has become something of an example to more radical islamists in other parts of the world. To me this may be his most important achievement. People who had previously thought democracy to be an impediment to their ideals now have an example of an islamist who is a committed democrat. Sadly islamist ideas aren't just going to go away, so I would rather they be 'housetrained' to fit into a democratic system than pose a constant threat from outside. To paraphrase former US President Lyndon Baines Johnson, I'd rather have them inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in.
My hope is that radical groups in Indonesia & elsewhere take a path closer to Erdogan than the Taliban.sigpic
Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C
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Army in Turkey had too much power vested for a democracy.
Stripping that power might prove good for Turkey in the long run. Maybe not the best option, or maybe kind of a radical cut, but had to be done.
Erdogan and his policies can be changed when Turks express such a wish. So nothing bad there.
What is really odd, to me at least, is how religiosity is proportional with economic growth. Always thought it would be the other way around.
Now if we speak of secularism or human rights of Turkish society, they still fare better then those in their immediate surrounding.No such thing as a good tax - Churchill
To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.
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Originally posted by Doktor View PostArmy in Turkey had too much power vested for a democracy.
Stripping that power might prove good for Turkey in the long run. Maybe not the best option, or maybe kind of a radical cut, but had to be done.
Erdogan and his policies can be changed when Turks express such a wish. So nothing bad there.
What is really odd, to me at least, is how religiosity is proportional with economic growth. Always thought it would be the other way around.
Now if we speak of secularism or human rights of Turkish society, they still fare better then those in their immediate surrounding.sigpic
Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C
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Originally posted by Bigfella View PostDepends what takes its place. An independent military prepared to defend democracy against all threats - count me in. A cowed military beholden to AKP - cure worse than disease.
Well that is the big test. The danger is that he gradually takes Turkey down a road where elections are effectively rigged. Unfortunately last time I checked Turkey's opposition was a rabble. The longer that goes on the more threat that path gets taken.
Don't know if that holds universally doc. It just happens that Erdogan adopted the sort of liberalizing free market policies that would have a certain type of American drooling....if only he was torturing & murdering leftists rather than lifting band on the wearing of headscarves. Not sure religiosity is always such a friend to economics.
Yes, but I've never been a fan of that sort of comparison. The failures of your neighbours should never be an excuse for your own failures. The standard any nation should aspire to is the best it can achieve, not sitting above some sort of 'regional average'.No such thing as a good tax - Churchill
To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.
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Originally posted by chanjyj View PostFrom my POV Turkey is still far more stable and moderate than anything else we are seeing now short of the Maldives (which is not a fair comparison considering the multitude of differences between them).
Erdogan or no Erdogan, the Turkish masses are still going to maintain the status quo due to the simple fact that they are used to years of pre-Erdogan governance and have settled happily that into their culture. It is going to take some fair work to affect their mindset.
The Indonesian members here know much better, but from what I've heard, Saudi-funded radicalization is transforming Indonesia too. It's especially sad for some of us since it is wiping out the last traces of Sanskrit culture outside India.Last edited by cataphract; 11 May 13,, 02:57.
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