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  • #61
    Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    You have to look at the long term impact of the proposal (though admittedly there are a lot of 'ifs' involved). The CJCSC position is supposed to rotate between the Army, Air Force and Navy. If the proposed reforms of the CJCSC position go ahead as planned, and the CJCSC becomes the 'main military power player', then the policy of rotating the CJCSC position between the three services will weaken the Army's overall position going forward. However, getting the proposal off the ground would require, initially, the appointment of a highly influential Pakistan Army general - one that could command the respect and loyalty of the incoming Army Chief and Corp commanders. General Kayani is uniquely positioned to play that role given his 6 years as COAS, during which time many of Musharraf's appointees have retired or been sidelined, and a new crop of generals promoted by Kayani has taken over the most influential Army command and staff positions.
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! Army chiefs giving up slots to the Air Force or Navy? When did I hear that?

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Tronic View Post
      Pari, what makes you think that? The move only seems to be devised to keep Kayani as the operational head of the PA after his extended term as COAS expires. That's about the only change I see happening. I don't see the civvies getting any stronger.
      Because the JCSC is government appointed. Kayani's appointment in no way weakens the Army, but the next few appointments after that? With enough time and appointments to bed in, the Army becomes clearly subservient to the civilian govt.
      In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

      Leibniz

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
        Because the JCSC is government appointed. Kayani's appointment in no way weakens the Army, but the next few appointments after that? With enough time and appointments to bed in, the Army becomes clearly subservient to the civilian govt.
        Even the COAS is "government appointed". So what is so different about this appointment, except for the fact that it gives even more power to the army over the other two military branches?


        Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
        You have to look at the long term impact of the proposal (though admittedly there are a lot of 'ifs' involved). The CJCSC position is supposed to rotate between the Army, Air Force and Navy. If the proposed reforms of the CJCSC position go ahead as planned, and the CJCSC becomes the 'main military power player', then the policy of rotating the CJCSC position between the three services will weaken the Army's overall position going forward. However, getting the proposal off the ground would require, initially, the appointment of a highly influential Pakistan Army general - one that could command the respect and loyalty of the incoming Army Chief and Corp commanders. General Kayani is uniquely positioned to play that role given his 6 years as COAS, during which time many of Musharraf's appointees have retired or been sidelined, and a new crop of generals promoted by Kayani has taken over the most influential Army command and staff positions.
        AM, from the entire history of JCSC's existence, only 3 chairmans have been from the PAF or PN, 11 have been from the army, including the last 6. And this, when the JCSC's role was only ceremonial and held no power.

        Shariff's proposed reforms want to give operational command to the JCSC chair, a position which could be held by Kayani. The "rotation" of the chair from the different arms is not what Sharif is proposing, and is an entirely different thing! My bet is, if Kayani leads a reformed and powerful JCSC, there is no way in hell the army will relinquish and share that power with the other arms. A PA general taking orders from a PAF or PN officer? Now, that'll be a site to see... but it's nothing but pipe dreams where things stand.
        Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
        -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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        • #64
          last week i watched a video of an interview of fazlullah who is most probably also officially supported by Afghan intelligence agency

          He claimed America Don't want to peace process happen between the taliban and Pak Govt.This is the reason the they increase the drone strikes when peace deals are likely to happen

          And i think while america forcing Pakistan to release taliban commanders to help afghan peace process should also support Pakistan peace process

          Since recently the TTP has claimed that if drone strikes are stopped we will annouce cease fire
          I hope the Drone strikes will be stopped for a time period till the peace deals with the tttp are done

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Tronic View Post
            Even the COAS is "government appointed". So what is so different about this appointment, except for the fact that it gives even more power to the army over the other two military branches?


            AM, from the entire history of JCSC's existence, only 3 chairmans have been from the PAF or PN, 11 have been from the army, including the last 6. And this, when the JCSC's role was only ceremonial and held no power.

            Shariff's proposed reforms want to give operational command to the JCSC chair, a position which could be held by Kayani. The "rotation" of the chair from the different arms is not what Sharif is proposing, and is an entirely different thing! My bet is, if Kayani leads a reformed and powerful JCSC, there is no way in hell the army will relinquish and share that power with the other arms. A PA general taking orders from a PAF or PN officer? Now, that'll be a site to see... but it's nothing but pipe dreams where things stand.
            As I said there are a lot of 'ifs' involved for the proposal to succeed long term. The Pakistani Army is still a very disciplined institution when it comes to following the military chain of command. The top functional military post, for the Army, has so far been the COAS. If the CJCSC position is reformed to actually wield power, and the first few appointments are Army generals that will command obedience from junior Army generals appointed to the COAS and other Army command and staff positions, then one creates a new military hierarchy (theoretically) that the Army will start to follow.

            In addition, the proposal to make the CJCSC more influential is not a Sharif idea - proposals for a unified special forces command (similar to the US JSOC) and a unified military command were raised during the Musharraf years, and have gathered steam with the Army beginning to realize the importance of the Air Force in 'softening targets' prior to ground deployments and providing CAS during ground deployments. Cooperation between the Army and Air Force during some of the operations in Swat and FATA only further strengthened the idea, and of course it has merit in conventional warfare as well.

            Again, a lot of 'ifs' involved here, and the biggest variable is whether or not another unconstitutional Army backed government overthrow takes place.
            Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
            https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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            • #66
              as per the urdu media sources

              America wants to see 1 year extension of Kiyani
              Last edited by farhan_9909; 06 Oct 13,, 16:27.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                As I said there are a lot of 'ifs' involved for the proposal to succeed long term.
                My point is, do not tie up the JCSC chair rotation proposal with the reforms proposed (or supported) by Sharif. They are not the same thing!


                The Pakistani Army is still a very disciplined institution when it comes to following the military chain of command. The top functional military post, for the Army, has so far been the COAS. If the CJCSC position is reformed to actually wield power, and the first few appointments are Army generals that will command obedience from junior Army generals appointed to the COAS and other Army command and staff positions, then one creates a new military hierarchy (theoretically) that the Army will start to follow.
                When I doubt PA's ability of taking orders from PAF or PN officers, I am not questioning their professionalism, but questioning whether they will ever allow things to get to that stage in the first place.


                In addition, the proposal to make the CJCSC more influential is not a Sharif idea - proposals for a unified special forces command (similar to the US JSOC) and a unified military command were raised during the Musharraf years, and have gathered steam with the Army beginning to realize the importance of the Air Force in 'softening targets' prior to ground deployments and providing CAS during ground deployments. Cooperation between the Army and Air Force during some of the operations in Swat and FATA only further strengthened the idea, and of course it has merit in conventional warfare as well.
                Actually, your CAS examples are precisely the reason why the PA would love a unified command under the army's leadership!

                Even if you put PA's history of political meddling aside and only deal with the military aspect, dishing out established mindsets and making it all work in tandem is a whole different story. Army soldiers taking orders from PAF officers? Easier said than done. India first proposed a joint command in the late 80s, started to experiment with it in the 90s, established a miniature model (Andaman Nicobar Command (ANC)) in 2001, and now almost 30 years later, the three services have still not fully embraced the idea. The IN and the IA have fought turf battles with the IAF and are making their own mini-airforces. And these are branches which have never ruled an entire country, or have held any political power. You can see why I'd be skeptical in this case...
                Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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                • #68
                  Could someone please elaborate?

                  Is PA in control of the whole landmass of Pakistan? If not, what does rejecting talks with the Taliban mean? Jack.

                  Cheers,
                  Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                    Is PA in control of the whole landmass of Pakistan?
                    Yes and no. The pakistani state gives some form of autonomy to the tribal belt which calms them down.

                    Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                    If not, what does rejecting talks with the Taliban mean? Jack.
                    The infidels are leaving

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                      Could someone please elaborate?

                      Is PA in control of the whole landmass of Pakistan? If not, what does rejecting talks with the Taliban mean? Jack.

                      Cheers,
                      They Do,Almost 99.5%.And those who thinks that Waziristan or Whole of FATA or KPK are under taliban than they are highly mistaken

                      Taliban lives in mountains and are spread..they strike and hide.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by farhan_9909 View Post
                        They Do,Almost 99.5%.And those who thinks that Waziristan or Whole of FATA or KPK are under taliban than they are highly mistaken

                        Taliban lives in mountains and are spread..they strike and hide.
                        Disagree. The Taliban overtly control whole villages and towns in the territories. The Taliban are also re-emerging in Swat and control the suburbs of Peshawar. Every day, militant groups are increasing their territory holdings and Pakistan is fracturing. If these trends are not soon reversed, Pakistan will reach a 'Humpty-Dumpty' point where it is impossible to put it all back together.
                        sigpic

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
                          Disagree. The Taliban overtly control whole villages and towns in the territories. The Taliban are also re-emerging in Swat and control the suburbs of Peshawar. Every day, militant groups are increasing their territory holdings and Pakistan is fracturing. If these trends are not soon reversed, Pakistan will reach a 'Humpty-Dumpty' point where it is impossible to put it all back together.
                          Yes Once but not now.I belong to baka khel and hence i do have knowledge of the ground realities.
                          in 2006-07 it was normal to see talibs roaming in the bazar of bannu and miranshah.But today even in the once stronghold of talibs "Wana".they are not.

                          If the Fight between talibs and Pak army was limited to each other.I am sure Pak army or the govt of pakistan would have never exercised the option of dialogue and peace deals.But they involve the bombing of civilian

                          I believe if the border with Afghanistan is completely fenced.Pak army can take down TTP within few years

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by farhan_9909 View Post
                            I believe if the border with Afghanistan is completely fenced. Pak army can take down TTP within few years
                            Won't happen. In better news...



                            Queen Elizabeth has invited Malala Yousafzai to visit Buckingham Palace. The Queen said she was highly impressed with Malala's courage after being shot in the head by Taliban gunmen one year ago. Ms Yousafzai is a strong contender for the Nobel Peace Prize.
                            sigpic

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by farhan_9909 View Post
                              as per the urdu media sources

                              America wants to see 1 year entension of Kiyani
                              Thats wrong and i for one would not support that. He has served his tenure, he needs to go and let the Institution continue. Gen Kiyani is a professional soldier, i think he will retire gracefully and not follow his predecessors. Most likely it appears that Lt Gen Haroon will serve as the CJCSC and Lt Rashad Mahmood will be appointed as the new COAS. Both are exceptional Officers and i would not see any qualms with their appointments.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
                                Won't happen. In better news...



                                Queen Elizabeth has invited Malala Yousafzai to visit Buckingham Palace. The Queen said she was highly impressed with Malala's courage after being shot in the head by Taliban gunmen one year ago. Ms Yousafzai is a strong contender for the Nobel Peace Prize.
                                I hope she wins.She than would be the 2nd Pakistani with Nobel peace prize

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