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  • #61
    Originally posted by USSWisconsin View Post
    That gives me the impression the professor helped some criminals get away with killing cops, which is despicable in my opinion.
    That's so not true. Everyone deserves a lawyer and the due process. Even those in the Gitmo, wait.

    One man's cop killing criminal is another's freedom fighting hero!!!

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    • #62
      Originally posted by cdude View Post
      That's so not true. Everyone deserves a lawyer and the due process. Even those in the Gitmo, wait.

      One man's cop killing criminal is another's freedom fighting hero!!!
      I am glad all the people that got off deserved to do so. 95% of the cases, over 20 years were not guilty? That sounds like a lot of wrongful prosecutions. That sounds like a problem.
      Last edited by USSWisconsin; 27 Apr 13,, 15:56.
      sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
      If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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      • #63
        Originally posted by USSWisconsin View Post
        I am glad all the people that got off deserved to do so. 95% of the cases, over 20 years were not guilty? That sounds like a lot of wrongful prosecutions. That sounds like a problem.
        Bigger problem is hundreds of people are held for 10+ years without a trial. And these are freedom fighters if they kill the right people.

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        • #64
          There was not even a page Friday morning and I come back today and see 5 pages in less than 24 hours.

          Can only mean one thing get out the :pop::pop::pop::pop::pop::pop::pop::pop::pop::pop: :pop::pop: time

          Wow! Everybody have some now?

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          • #65
            Originally posted by USSWisconsin View Post
            That gives me the impression the professor helped some criminals get away with killing cops, which is despicable in my opinion.

            I was discussing terrorist attacks. Why is it necessary to label a cop killer as a terrorist? Cop killer is a capital crime. I am describing my impressions of the story, asking if it was terrorism, not implying these weren't criminals.

            From what I've heard, they appear to be criminals resisting arrest and committing murder in the process, cop killings. If they had lived, they would have deserved the death penalty. Is there evidence they were planning an act of terrorism?
            The problem is, a lot of criminal groups often have some sort of nebulous ties (playing Degrees of UBL, I suppose) to sundry terrorist groups, which confuses the matter even more, when one considers things like "material and logistical support".

            One of my bosses at my previous job wrote a ton of material on the terrorist-criminal link.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
              I simply made an observation.

              Muslims cannot assimilate.

              Anywhere.
              Simply untrue

              Observe more

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              • #67
                Originally posted by paintgun View Post
                Simply untrue

                Observe more
                Best leave it alone mate. Mods have flagged that this thread will be locked down if we keep drifting off course. This sort of thing always devolves into a shouting match. Lets focus on events in China. :)

                p.s. Didn't realise you were a local. Is this recent or was I just not paying attention (which is probably the most likely explanation ).
                sigpic

                Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                • #68
                  "But beards have nothing to do with terrorists. Asking a woman to take her veil off is disrespectful to her and to her religion." From BBC, the whole reporting doesn't make much sense to me but whatever. I do want to point out traditionally Uighers don't wear veil. Only recently that some Hui and Muslim minority converted to more religious wahabi that women begin to wear veil.

                  BBC News - Doubts over China government claims on Xinjiang attack

                  Doubts over China government claims on Xinjiang attack
                  House destroyed in a violent clash in Selibuya (25 April 2013) It is not clear how the incident in Selibuya turned so violent

                  Rather than "terrorists", local people told us the violence involved a local family who had had a long-standing dispute with officials.
                  Local people speak to a police officer in Kashgar (25 April 2013) Local government regulations allegedly say women cannot wear full veils

                  The family, we were told, were very religious. Officials had, for a long time, been pressuring the men in the family to shave off their beards, and the women to stop wearing full veils covering everything but their eyes.

                  Local government regulations, we were told, stipulate that women must not wear full veils, and only men who are over 40 years old are allowed to grow beards.

                  We cannot identify those who talked to us, as they are at risk of official reprisals, but one person said "community workers asked the family not to have their women cover their faces".

                  "They'd been telling them for a long time. They never agreed," the person added.

                  Another said: "I'm not well educated, but to my understanding, they are not terrorists."
                  'Pickaxes'

                  It is not clear how the dispute turned so violent and why so many police and officials were killed, but a third person said: "I think the government bothered them too many times. They became very annoyed."
                  Uighurs and Xinjiang


                  "But beards have nothing to do with terrorists. Asking a woman to take her veil off is disrespectful to her and to her religion."

                  One eyewitness also gave a graphic and disturbing account of how some of the men in the family died. Again, it does not fit with the official story that the "terrorists" were shot.

                  "I saw police coming," said the witness, "then I saw one injured man, carrying a knife about a metre long, chasing the police. They all ran into the government compound (across the road from the market).

                  "The injured man pushed his way in too. He was immediately shot in the leg and fell to the ground. Many police surrounded him. They stabbed him to death with their pickaxes."

                  The witness went on to describe how three of the man's friends then arrived to help him, saw what had happened and fled to some nearby shops.

                  "The police tried to catch the men who fought back with axes and knives," the witness told us. "The police shot them twice in the body. They fell to the ground."
                  'No mercy'

                  This account clearly raises questions about how at least one of the men died at the hands of police, and, possibly, whether there was justification for shooting the other three as well.

                  We were unable to find out more about the circumstances surrounding the deaths of the 15 police and government workers the men allegedly killed. We were spotted by police before we could get any information that might have corroborated the government's account of how they died.

                  Critics, though, say that by blaming "terrorists" China is ignoring the root cause of Uighur resentment, and China should rethink its own, heavy-handed tactics.

                  In response to the deaths in Selibuya the US state department said it "regretted the unfortunate acts of violence that led to these casualties", but it did not condemn the acts as terrorism. Instead, it called on China to "take steps to reduce tensions and promote long-term stability in Xinjiang".

                  That has infuriated China, which argues that following the Boston bombings the US is guilty of double standards.

                  Beijing's Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying said: "China ensures the rights of people from all ethnic groups including their religious rights. We are firmly opposed to the US confusing black and white, and right and wrong.

                  "Not only do they not condemn violent terrorist acts, but they also make casual and irresponsible accusations against China's ethnic policy."

                  In Selibuya, though, we heard some frustration with China's ethnic policies, at the restrictions on men growing beards and women wearing veils, if they wish.
                  Last edited by kyli; 28 Apr 13,, 07:56.

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                  • #69
                    One thing I'm wondering about - is it really mandatory that you HAVE to wear a veil / beard whatever? I was told by a Muslim colleague 1.5 years ago that it wasn't. Doing so shows piety, is an act of subservience but is NOT mandatory.

                    And my friend was a volunteer official at a mosque, so I wouldn't exactly say he was guessing.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by chanjyj View Post
                      One thing I'm wondering about - is it really mandatory that you HAVE to wear a veil / beard whatever? I was told by a Muslim colleague 1.5 years ago that it wasn't. Doing so shows piety, is an act of subservience but is NOT mandatory. And my friend was a volunteer official at a mosque, so I wouldn't exactly say he was guessing.
                      As I understand it the Quran advises Muslims to wear moderate attire, but does not specify a veil. Apparently, the wives of Mohammad wore the veil, but were not compelled to do so. Wearing of the veil seems to be based more on Arab culture than on Islamic doctrine.
                      sigpic

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                        Best leave it alone mate. Mods have flagged that this thread will be locked down if we keep drifting off course. This sort of thing always devolves into a shouting match. Lets focus on events in China. :)

                        p.s. Didn't realise you were a local. Is this recent or was I just not paying attention (which is probably the most likely explanation ).
                        very recent indeed, good memory BF
                        I'm here for my master study, and to steal your jobs!

                        p.s great beers, been drinking way more than I used to :)

                        Originally posted by chanjyj View Post
                        One thing I'm wondering about - is it really mandatory that you HAVE to wear a veil / beard whatever? I was told by a Muslim colleague 1.5 years ago that it wasn't. Doing so shows piety, is an act of subservience but is NOT mandatory.

                        And my friend was a volunteer official at a mosque, so I wouldn't exactly say he was guessing.
                        My friend is a moslem, he drinks, and he shaves, nevertheless he still prays to adzan
                        He puts his son into a catholic school, to show him how it feels to be a minority

                        And no you don't have to wear a veil or a beard, Islam like any religion I believe is a matter between the person and God, how do a person represent his/her religiousness is up to him/her

                        My other moslem friend never prays, drinks alot, and plays to Radiohead. Never assimilate hmm.
                        Last edited by paintgun; 28 Apr 13,, 10:17.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by paintgun View Post
                          very recent indeed, good memory BF
                          I'm here for my master study, and to steal your jobs!
                          Welcome! Steal away, we can always use more postgrads (if it will make you feel better we can probably export some bogans to your homeland as a sort of swap ).

                          p.s great beers, been drinking way more than I used to :)
                          Great beers, crap prices. Growing microbrewery scene in Melbourne helps. Give me a shout if you ever want to catch up. I know a place with great Ethiopian beer & even better ethiopian food (and some damned fine jazz if that is your thing). First round is on me. :)

                          My friend is a moslem, he drinks, and he shaves, nevertheless he still prays to adzan
                          He puts his son into a catholic school, to show him how it feels to be a minority

                          And no you don't have to wear a veil or a beard, Islam like any religion I believe is a matter between the person and God, how do a person represent his/her religiousness is up to him/her

                          My other moslem friend never prays, drinks alot, and plays to Radiohead. Never assimilate hmm.
                          Its like any religion - it depends which version you follow & how. Jews aren't required to cover their heads or grow beards, but many do. I've met many sikhs who wear neither turban nor beard. Yet to those who do keep with those practices they are an essential part of their faith. I'm sure Tronic can tell you all about Sikhs having their beards & hair forcibly cut during occasional aoutbreaks of communal violence in India. I guess the point here is that if somebody else compels you to strip yourself of aspects of your religion that you see as important against your will it is likely to cause offence & sometimes provoke an even stronger reaction. That in no way justifies what happened here, but it puts it in a different context.

                          What is emerging here, however, is that this sounds less & less like a 'group of terrorists planning terrorist acts' as we were told, and more like a dispute between a group of people & local officials. This sort of thing happens in China almost daily, and sometimes with a violent outcome. Had this not involved Uighurs I'm not sure we would even have heard about it.
                          sigpic

                          Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                          • #73
                            Ah microbrewery, friends been talking about their recipes, we were at the Belgium Beer Cafe, and he was working on his clone of the Hoogarden.

                            These clashes are usually more economic motivated rather than racial, religion or ideologically related.
                            Everyone knows how the CCP feels about a competing ideology, oh no don't you try to raise one in China. People joke about China being the worst place for terrorists, I guess there is some truth to that. And remember about news media talking about the chance Arab spring in China.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by paintgun View Post
                              Ah microbrewery, friends been talking about their recipes, we were at the Belgium Beer Cafe, and he was working on his clone of the Hoogarden.
                              I walk home every day past the Mountain Goat Brewery in Richmond. Smells great! They open it up every few weeks & you can actually go to the place & drink the product (prety cool!). If you are keen track them down online & get on their mailing list.

                              These clashes are usually more economic motivated rather than racial, religion or ideologically related.
                              Everyone knows how the CCP feels about a competing ideology, oh no don't you try to raise one in China. People joke about China being the worst place for terrorists, I guess there is some truth to that. And remember about news media talking about the chance Arab spring in China.
                              I agree that there is no one reason, but to me the root of this the clash between an ethnic group that wants more control over its own land & future & a central state that has no intention of giving that ground. Uighurs also feel increasingly threatened by Han migrants. As wiht Tibet, the plan seems to be to simply shift the population balance over a couple of generations to the point where groups such as this are increasingly marginalized in their own lands. That may also come with an economic component - especially if Han migrants dominate the economic life of the area. If you want to colonize a place permanently that is the way to do it.

                              In both Tibet & Xinjiang there is a religious overlay to the conflicts due to the close identificatio nof the respective groups wiht their religion. Outside China no one seems to treat Buddhist violence & resistance as 'terrorism'. Guess they got a better PR team. Fascinating.
                              sigpic

                              Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                              • #75
                                If this happened in the US, not many people and no western media would ever question this incident isn't terrorism. Because it happened in China, people would suddenly become an expert in how to define terrorism and terrorists and who constitute terrorists. If “One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter” is the motto, then next time when Muslim followers try to justify the attacks on U.S. are a result of the U.S. aggression and interference please be more sympathetic to them.

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