Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Sikh History

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by lemontree View Post
    I know dude, I was differentiating from a non-sikh, but a follower of the Guru's teachings (the non-sikh punjabis).
    That's sort of contradictory, but I know where you're going with this...


    The era we are talking about is 1700's. Aurangzed was already dead by 1707 and the Marathas were much more of a force to threaten the Mughals in Delhi, while the Khalsa Army became a force to reckon with a bit later.
    Yes, that's true. After the death of Aurangzeb, infighting between the Mughals reached an all time high, and the next 40 years saw six different Mughal emperors ascend and descend from the Mughal throne. Infact, five of those Emporers came in a short time span of merely 12 years. By the time the Mughals organized under Muhammad Shah, the Marathas had already chewed off the Southern portion of the Mughal Empire, while the loss of power over Punjab and in the Pashtun regions meant the Persians, led by Nader Shah, were given an open corridor to walk up to Delhi and put the final nail in the coffin of the Mughal Empire.

    We have all the time, and do it in a phased manner. Will clear some of my cobwebs and your too.
    I'm actually running on borrowed time, just wrapping up my winter semester here, but will definitely have all the time after the 22nd!


    The policy of religious tolerance was followed by Akbar, while Humayun was in no position to be choosy as he was on the run most of the time.
    Sikhs were not militarized during the time of Humayun, so he had no need to win their favour by seeking blessings of a Sikh guru, but he did so, nevertheless.

    It was not just a matter of taking political sides, accounts of the orthodox muslims in Jahangir's court give a different picture, as the memoirs of Jahangir Tuzuk-i- Jahangiri. Jahangir's views towards the sikhs may have been influenced by political events, while the orthodox elite had a different agenda and Jahangir's memoirs reflect the same orthodox view point. Jahangir had developed an extermist view towards the Sikhs and he used the Khusrao rebellion to please the orthodox muslims and execute Guru Arjan Dev.

    Everything above has a tinge of communal politics played by the Mughal court.
    It's no secret that Jahangir despised Guru Arjan, and in his memoirs, the Tuzk-e-Jahangiri, he writes a long rant against Guru Arjan and how he was 'misleading naive Hindus and Muslims in the garb of sainthood'. And although you yourself admit that Jahangir's views towards Sikhs were influenced by political events, you throw your weight behind the reasoning that Jahangir carried out Guru Arjan's execution solely to please the Islamists. There is no doubt that the Islamists, the likes of Ahmad Sirhindi, were pleased at Guru Arjan's execution, but stating that as the sole motive is a partial look at events, and misleads people who do not know the full history.

    There is a large difference between stating that there was a 'tinge' of communalism and painting the whole history as black and white communal. Ofcourse religion was a very effective tool in that era, and all sides used religious zeal to motivate their armies. But religion was a tool utilized whenever needed, and put aside when it was not needed. It was not religion, but political expansion which drove the events of that era.


    Aurangzeb was a fanatic who would not have needed an excuse to presecute the Sikhs anyway.

    So how does this prove that Aurangzebs court was not against the Sikhs?.... they found a puppet in Ram Rai and would have wanted to control the Sikhs. Remember that Mughal armies were fighting a prolonged Maratha insurgency, hence Aurangzeb would have liked to limit his troops deployment.
    Point was about correcting your assertion that Sikh vs Mughal wars were about Sikhism vs Islam. Aurangzeb wanting to control Sikhs, rather than finish them off, shows political intent. A large chunk of Aurangzeb's army being led by Hindu Rajput generals also shows politically motivated wars than religiously motivated. Fact that the Pashtuns (who are largely Muslims) and Sikhs were both waging war against Aurangzeb again goes to show political conflict, rather than religious.


    That was the general politics of the era....the Khalsa nation was already taking shape, born out of a zeal to prevail inspite of the Mughal Empire.
    Actually, the Durrani Empire was the bigger adversary in this era. The Mughals had capitulated by this time. The bloodiest Sikh battles were actually fought against the Afghans, rather than the Mughals.
    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
      Tronic, what are bhappa sardars? I see Jat Sikhs making fun of them?
      All "Jatt Sikhs" do not make fun of them, but some ignorant people do. "Bhappa" just means "brother" in Lahnda Punjabi, the dialect spoken in the western portion of Pakistani Punjab. The way it is used in Indian Punjab is in a derogatory sense against migrants from Pakistani Punjab who left Pakistan after the partition.

      It is akin to calling the Hindi speakers "Bhaiya" (as that means "brother" in Hindi), which is also used in a derogatory way against people from Hindi speaking states such as Bihar, UP, MP, etc.


      Also there are Sikhs in Maharashtra who are pretty dark and wear the turban differently. I think they are scheduled caste type versions of Sikhs. Possibly originating from Nanded area. What are they called?

      Thanks.
      Sikhs from Nanded are just called Nanded Sikhs, not "scheduled caste type versions". They are descendants of a Sikh military unit which was stationed in the Deccan, and over the years, they married local Marathi women and mixed in with the local population. That is the reason they look different than the Punjabi Sikhs.
      Last edited by Tronic; 13 Apr 13,, 06:26.
      Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
      -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

      Comment


      • #63
        Thanks bro. I kind of thought they were dalit types because they are usually from lower socioeconomic class and usally work as mehanics, fitters, etc.

        Also, if the Sikhs reached Nanded, how were the relations between the Sikhs and the Marathas? You are right we hardly study this stuff in school. I did ICSE, and we stopped at Mughals, which even was an optional section.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
          Thanks bro. I kind of thought they were dalit types because they are usually from lower socioeconomic class and usally work as mehanics, fitters, etc.
          I'm not sure what their socioeconomic condition is. I visited Nanded a few years ago, and the only thing which looks prosperous in Nanded are the Gurudwaras. It's not that prosperous of a city to start off with.

          Also, if the Sikhs reached Nanded, how were the relations between the Sikhs and the Marathas?
          The military unit in Nanded was stationed there around 1707-1708, accompanying Guru Gobind Singh and Mughal Emperor Bahadur Shah during their reconciliation talks. It didn't have much bearing on the Marathas.

          Sikh-Maratha relations only really began in mid-18th century, once the Marathas expanded northwards towards Punjab. Their relations altered between co-operation and open rivalry. Marathas and Sikhs were both expansionist, and that meant their political and military interests clashed time to time.
          Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
          -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Tronic View Post
            I'm not sure what their socioeconomic condition is. I visited Nanded a few years ago, and the only thing which looks prosperous in Nanded are the Gurudwaras. It's not that prosperous of a city to start off with.
            I have a sardar friend who runs a dhaba. He was telling me. He used a term which I cannot recall.

            I think he mentioned something about these being converts who were granted Sikh-hood by one of your gurus for meritorious service or something? As in, they were not mixed marriage offspring to begin with as mentioned by you. At least not for the most part, cause that also must have happened.
            Last edited by doppelganger; 13 Apr 13,, 10:21.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by doppelganger View Post
              I have a sardar friend who runs a dhaba. He was telling me. He used a term which I cannot recall.

              I think he mentioned something about these being converts who were granted Sikh-hood by one of your gurus for meritorious service or something? As in, they were not mixed marriage offspring to begin with as mentioned by you. At least not for the most part, cause that also must have happened.
              It's nothing short of discrimination. They are not exactly respected by the Punjabi Sikhs, who see them as alien Marathi converts, with an alien culture. The Nanded Sikhs are seen as having incorporated heretical practices, due to their mixture of some Hindu practices like "aarti" of their weapons. Another factor is, as I stated in my post # 3; "Converts don't really figure into these Jathas, not having a military history or lineage to stand by, hence converts aren't greeted with the same enthusiasm as in other religions." The Nanded Sikhs argue that they are descendants of Guru Gobind's military unit which accompanied him to Nanded, to gain respect and acceptance for having a militaristic lineage. I give them the benefit of doubt.
              Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
              -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                It's nothing short of discrimination. They are not exactly respected by the Punjabi Sikhs, who see them as alien Marathi converts, with an alien culture. The Nanded Sikhs are seen as having incorporated heretical practices, due to their mixture of some Hindu practices like "aarti" of their weapons. Another factor is, as I stated in my post # 3; "Converts don't really figure into these Jathas, not having a military history or lineage to stand by, hence converts aren't greeted with the same enthusiasm as in other religions." The Nanded Sikhs argue that they are descendants of Guru Gobind's military unit which accompanied him to Nanded, to gain respect and acceptance for having a militaristic lineage. I give them the benefit of doubt.
                Thank you for your honest and frank reply Tronic.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                  Yes, that's true. After the death of Aurangzeb, infighting between the Mughals reached an all time high, and the next 40 years saw six different Mughal emperors ascend and descend from the Mughal throne. Infact, five of those Emporers came in a short time span of merely 12 years. By the time the Mughals organized under Muhammad Shah, the Marathas had already chewed off the Southern portion of the Mughal Empire, while the loss of power over Punjab and in the Pashtun regions meant the Persians, led by Nader Shah, were given an open corridor to walk up to Delhi and put the final nail in the coffin of the Mughal Empire.
                  Correct.

                  I'm actually running on borrowed time, just wrapping up my winter semester here, but will definitely have all the time after the 22nd!
                  No problem, you finish your semester/exams and then we can. You are one person you has quite some indept knowledge, so I dont mind waiting.

                  Sikhs were not militarized during the time of Humayun, so he had no need to win their favour by seeking blessings of a Sikh guru, but he did so, nevertheless.
                  Again Humayun, was on the run after his defeat by Sher Shah, and most probably went to Guru Angad in a desperate effort to seek devine intervention. His father, Babar's encounter with Guru Nanak Dev may have been the reason for this belief.

                  (Now this is something I did not know. So I see!..you are teaching me something new)

                  It's no secret that Jahangir despised Guru Arjan, and in his memoirs, the Tuzk-e-Jahangiri, he writes a long rant against Guru Arjan and how he was 'misleading naive Hindus and Muslims in the garb of sainthood'. And although you yourself admit that Jahangir's views towards Sikhs were influenced by political events, you throw your weight behind the reasoning that Jahangir carried out Guru Arjan's execution solely to please the Islamists. There is no doubt that the Islamists, the likes of Ahmad Sirhindi, were pleased at Guru Arjan's execution, but stating that as the sole motive is a partial look at events, and misleads people who do not know the full history.
                  Yes, but what you said was also true. Jahangir seems to have been influenced by the orthodox muslims in the court. Being Akbar's son, he would have followed his father's policies to a large extent, but the orthodox in the court would have managed to poison his mind. Another factor was Nur Jehan, his wife, she appears to have had a lot of influence in policy matters.

                  There is a large difference between stating that there was a 'tinge' of communalism and painting the whole history as black and white communal. Ofcourse religion was a very effective tool in that era, and all sides used religious zeal to motivate their armies. But religion was a tool utilized whenever needed, and put aside when it was not needed. It was not religion, but political expansion which drove the events of that era.
                  Yes I see your point now.

                  Point was about correcting your assertion that Sikh vs Mughal wars were about Sikhism vs Islam. Aurangzeb wanting to control Sikhs, rather than finish them off, shows political intent. A large chunk of Aurangzeb's army being led by Hindu Rajput generals also shows politically motivated wars than religiously motivated. Fact that the Pashtuns (who are largely Muslims) and Sikhs were both waging war against Aurangzeb again goes to show political conflict, rather than religious.
                  Yes dude all true, but the fact is that once the muslim rulers came to power, then conversions were the order of the day. That is when the Khalsa army proved to be the protector of the non-muslims. The same animosity was created by the evangelical CO's of the units in East India Co., which led to mutinies in many units.

                  Rajputs fighting along side Mughals, were due to the fact that they were vassel states. They were order to lend their state forces in the service of the Mughal Emperor.

                  Actually, the Durrani Empire was the bigger adversary in this era. The Mughals had capitulated by this time. The bloodiest Sikh battles were actually fought against the Afghans, rather than the Mughals.
                  Yes agree with that.

                  Cheers!...on the rocks!!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                    It's nothing short of discrimination. They are not exactly respected by the Punjabi Sikhs, who see them as alien Marathi converts, with an alien culture. The Nanded Sikhs are seen as having incorporated heretical practices, due to their mixture of some Hindu practices like "aarti" of their weapons. Another factor is, as I stated in my post # 3; "Converts don't really figure into these Jathas, not having a military history or lineage to stand by, hence converts aren't greeted with the same enthusiasm as in other religions." The Nanded Sikhs argue that they are descendants of Guru Gobind's military unit which accompanied him to Nanded, to gain respect and acceptance for having a militaristic lineage. I give them the benefit of doubt.
                    I did not know this.

                    The Gurudwara Hazur Sahib in Nanded is a beautiful building. I think it was built at the site where Guru Gobind died.

                    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X