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  • Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
    Colonel, you keep ignoring my point. My one and only problem is with your claim Israel goaded the US into Iraq. Read my last post. There are only two options. Which option do you think more likely? I agree the intel is bad, I agree Israel came to the wrong conclusions. But your assertion Israel goaded the US into the Iraq war based on the faulty intelligence is also fallacious.
    Oh come on, Ben. Out of the four countries who got it wrong, only Israel did not have to have men died. You got it wrong and got it wrong big time. The difference is that you did not have men died. There is ONLY one reason and one reason ONLY why these four countries got it wrong. They wanted war. It is NOT good faith. It is bad work. What did you call it? Criminal negligence?

    The BIG DIFFERENCE between Israel and the US, UK, and Australia? Israel did not have to pay for her mistake. Everybody else had to live with their choices in this matter. Israel did not. Israel did goad the US into war because she was too fucking blind to see anything else, not even when it was staring at her in her face.

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    • How would Israel know they won't have to bear the consequences?

      In GW1 Iraqi missiles were flying westwards, not southwards.
      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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      • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
        How would Israel know they won't have to bear the consequences?
        Then everybody in their intel community should be fired and have their pensions stripped.

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        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          A Saddam willing to assassinate a former President of the US cannot be trusted with the knowledge of 11 Sept.
          There has been no concrete proof of that and besides that former president tried to kill Saddam first and encouraged rebels to kill Saddam during the uprising after the Gulf War I ended so the feeling was mutual.

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          • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
            There has been no concrete proof of that and besides that former president tried to kill Saddam first and encouraged rebels to kill Saddam during the uprising after the Gulf War I ended so the feeling was mutual.
            This is not a court of law, Hitesh. The intel was solid enough to act on. And George Bush went after the C3 during a time of war and encouragement of an uprising is not an Act of War.

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            • Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
              Either way the point is moot. US intelligence would have double checked any piece of information given to them by any foreign power, including Israel. To not do so would be criminally negligent.
              That is exactly what Pearle and Wolfawitz were doing. DIA disagreed but these 2 and other amateurs did their own "analysis" and did not get multiple confirming sources....because they wanted to go to war, period.

              Too much evidence has come out to suggest otherwise.
              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
              Mark Twain

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              • Were they charged?

                The same question is being asked for Israelis who passed the info.
                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  Oh Horse Puckey! Israel was providing a hell of the lot wrong intel
                  I didn't know Rocco Martino and Col. Antonio Nucera were Israeli.
                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  .... and both privately and publicly cheering the US on.
                  By your logic then the US was also fighting KSA, Qatar, UAE and Iran's enemies.

                  What is horse puckey is the bankrupt conspirationist notion that the US is 'sent' by Israel to fight her wars, and frankly is below you Col.

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                  • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                    This is not a court of law, Hitesh. The intel was solid enough to act on.
                    Says who? Clinton attacked Saddam for the Bush assassination when Clinton was being impeached and he needed a diversion and needed to score brownie points with the Republican senators. He just launched a bunch of cruise missiles and Paveway guided munition attacks and declared it over. The only other time was brought up when George W. Bush brought it up in his speech to Congress. Not even Pentagon was thinking it was justification enough to go to war. Only the Bush administration made it a justification. I think this one is really an example of grasping at straws to get justification to go to war.


                    And George Bush went after the C3 during a time of war and encouragement of an uprising is not an Act of War.
                    George Bush gave intel to the rebels of how to kill Saddam Hussein which is far worse than the evidence of Saddam's complicity in the Bush assassination attempt.
                    Last edited by Blademaster; 25 Mar 13,, 00:20.

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                    • Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                      To me the key is would the US and Britain have gone to war in Iraq if they hadn't had any intel from Israel. If the answer is yes, the point is moot.
                      Actually i think it can be argued that the US would still have gone ahead with the war anywhere. If my memory serves me right, I think the 'false' intelligence was first presented to the US at the CIA's post in Italy, the CIA chief there rubbished it and called it out straight away. Some guy (can't remember the names) from Italy then took the evidence directly to WH, it was then that things took a dramatic turn and war drums started beating. When the CIA chief in Italy tried to raise alarm bells on the evidence noone was listening. It seems to me WH was already decided to go to war. Various other high fliers were dispatched to both Iraq and Niger including ambassadors and they all came empty and declared as such but come 2003 we still ended up with a war.

                      I am not judging either way here on the motives of this war as i find the issue wholly confusing. The only thing that makes sense to me is that this was a US grudge war more than anything else. But the notion that this was a war waged by the US at Israeli's behest is a stretch in my opinion.
                      Last edited by Zinja; 25 Mar 13,, 01:00.

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                      • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                        Says who?
                        Says the people who gave the order to attack.

                        Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                        Clinton attacked Saddam for the Bush assassination when Clinton was being impeached and he needed a diversion and needed to score brownie points with the Republican senators.
                        Then Clinton performed an Act of War ... provided that you're right but you're not.

                        Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                        He just launched a bunch of cruise missiles and Paveway guided munition attacks and declared it over.
                        Hardly, Clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act, paving the way to the actual Declaration of War.

                        Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                        The only other time was brought up when George W. Bush brought it up in his speech to Congress. Not even Pentagon was thinking it was justification enough to go to war.
                        The Pentagon has no authority to decide war. That power belongs soley to Congress. It is there where you have to make the argument.

                        Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                        Only the Bush administration made it a justification. I think this one is really an example of grasping at straws to get justification to go to war.
                        The Declaration of War, ie the Iraq Resolution, contains no language concerning the assassination attempt. The question was asked why did Bush himself wanted war, not the legal language on which the authorization was gained.

                        Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                        George Bush gave intel to the rebels of how to kill Saddam Hussein which is far worse than the evidence of Saddam's complicity in the Bush assassination attempt.
                        That is not an Act of War. Saddam's attempt was an Act of War.

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                        • Originally posted by Zinja View Post
                          I didn't know Rocco Martino and Col. Antonio Nucera were Israeli.
                          And Gen Zini was American.

                          Originally posted by Zinja View Post
                          By your logic then the US was also fighting KSA, Qatar, UAE and Iran's enemies.
                          The Americans were but the Gulf Countries were not the ones providing the false intel and the KSA even denied operational space to launch the attack. Again, only four countries thought the intel was solid enough for war and out of those four, Israel did not need to pay for her mistake.

                          Originally posted by Zinja View Post
                          What is horse puckey is the bankrupt conspirationist notion that the US is 'sent' by Israel to fight her wars, and frankly is below you Col.
                          Not "sent" but certainly goaded and encouraged. Israel did everything she could to tilt the evidence towards war. We know where and why American, British, and Australian intel failed. Do you know why Israeli intel failed? Do you want to ... or just give them a blank pass?

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                          • I will say my parting shot here and then im done...
                            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                            And Gen Zini was American.
                            I dont get it. What has Gen Zinni got to do with Italian Martino and Antonio?
                            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                            The Americans were .....
                            You found fault in Israel cheering on, im pointing to you that by that logic then America and the allies were fighting wars of the other countries as well since they too were cheering on, so why single out Israel?
                            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                            .......the Gulf Countries were not the ones providing the false intel ...
                            Can you then tell me what this 'false' intelligence is that was provided by Israel for America to fight Israel's war? The only intelligence im aware of is that from Martino which was called out by CIA. US still chose to go to war still, how is that fighting Israel's war?

                            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                            Israel did everything she could to tilt the evidence towards war.
                            Show me the evidence.

                            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                            We know where and why American, British, and Australian intel failed. Do you know why Israeli intel failed? Do you want to ... or just give them a blank pass?
                            No one is giving anyone a pass. Im objecting to Mihais's statement that the US was killing enemies of Israel when Saddam was equally if not more so an enemy of the US and Us's allies. It was not Israel that was invaded in GW, it was a US ally. Israel had nothing to do with that war but ended up dodging scuds on their land and with no right to retaliate. Israel went in on Iraq in 82 for herself, she didn't ask for US to go in on her behalf so i object to Mihais' statement.
                            Last edited by Zinja; 29 Mar 13,, 23:54.

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                            • Object,nobody's stopping you.If you want open sources about how/if/when the Israelis acted as the Colonel said,keep waiting the next 50 years.
                              If you can read a bit between the lines,you wouldn't be objecting.Your country,your money and your men.Use or misuse them as you like.

                              Now,if you bother to search how and why the German BND,for example,considered the intel unreliable,a few green lights might pop-up in your brain.Who has more sources in the area between the Germans,French,Saudis,Americans and Israelis?Let's see who's provided help for the Peshmerga since the 80's?Meaning that are well connected on the ground.
                              And now let's take a look at motivations.You could also take a look at the history of the relations between the Israeli intel and the rest of its allies.
                              I could go on for the rest of the night,but I have the feeling it's not worth it.

                              All the facts can only lead to the conclusion that Israel goaded the US in the war,for its own geopolitical reasons.That it coincided or not with US interests or wishes is another issue.The US might have been wrong.The chances that Israel was wrong are few and far between.
                              Those who know don't speak
                              He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                              • I think this explains it all

                                BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israelis 'misread' Iraqi threat

                                "Israeli intelligence was a full partner with the US and Britain in developing a false picture of Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction capability," said the author of the report, retired Brigadier General Shlomo Brom.

                                "It badly overestimated the Iraqi threat to Israel and reinforced the American and British belief that the weapons existed."

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