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  • #61
    The US is your largest trading partner....a bilateral $25 billion annually and growing....and defense is not that big a part of that.

    So while Israel will be more free in the future to execute the Phalcon deal, it will do so at the risk of pissing off its largest trading partner. And a lot of trade to Israel from the US is defense related. You have a very robust defense industry....which is highly dependent on US goods and services.

    As has been said the US has interests....not friends.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

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    • #62
      Ben I scratched my head in disbelief.If you think that Russia or China will be your new backer,let me put mildly,I find it doubtful.If a large number of Israelis believe that,you might end being screwed.Why on Earth will they do that?The Chinese are hungry for money and oil,and you have none.But they can make a bunch of money selling your tech(and that of the americans as well) to your foes.
      The Russians might have a limited interest,in a rapidly changing world.But,again to put it mildly,you don't have there a bunch of neo-protestants believing Israel is the greatest since drinkable water .
      Those who know don't speak
      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
        All of which has nothing to do with Israel's value as an ally. If I was given the chance to get paid to betray my major ally, never commit soldiers to its wars, never provide bases and have our leaders as much as tell my major ally to go f*ck iteslf on their soil I'd jump at the chance. Sounds like a great gig. We dumbfvcks spend billions sending our young men to die in US wars, provide bases & vital facilities & can't even get a crappy trade concession.
        I just thought of this. Where in the world would Israeli troops be welcomed? Even as Peacekeepers. East Timor? You think the Indonesia would not be screaming bloody fucking Jews? About the only places I can think of is Sub-Sahara Africa and even there, the Muslims in the North would not be pleased to have Jewish guns in their backyard.

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        • #64
          If I recall correctly, Archimedes first coined the term 'eureka moment'. In regards to this thread, I am obviously in his debt.
          sigpic

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
            I just thought of this. Where in the world would Israeli troops be welcomed? Even as Peacekeepers. East Timor? You think the Indonesia would not be screaming bloody fucking Jews? About the only places I can think of is Sub-Sahara Africa and even there, the Muslims in the North would not be pleased to have Jewish guns in their backyard.
            South America. I have seen no mosques there.
            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
              If I recall correctly, Archimedes first coined the term 'eureka moment'. In regards to this thread, I am obviously in his debt.
              Your sarcasm is noted and appreciated,Madame Capitaine
              Those who know don't speak
              He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                South America. I have seen no mosques there.
                And they have relative good relations with Israel and its armed forces.
                Those who know don't speak
                He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                  South America. I have seen no mosques there.
                  They're Catholics. And in the case of Argentinia, the refuge of rich Nazis.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
                    If I recall correctly, Archimedes first coined the term 'eureka moment'. In regards to this thread, I am obviously in his debt.
                    I'm curious, what's your eureka moment? PM it if you like
                    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                    Leibniz

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                    • #70
                      Meanwhile, back on topic, Obama got to play the international statesman big time today

                      AMMAN, Jordan — Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel on Friday apologized in a personal phone call to Turkey’s prime minister for a deadly commando raid on a Turkish ship in 2010, in a sudden reconciliation between the two countries that was partly brokered by President Obama during his visit to Israel this week, according to Israeli, Turkish and American officials
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                      Continues
                      In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                      Leibniz

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        I just thought of this. Where in the world would Israeli troops be welcomed? Even as Peacekeepers. East Timor? You think the Indonesia would not be screaming bloody fucking Jews? About the only places I can think of is Sub-Sahara Africa and even there, the Muslims in the North would not be pleased to have Jewish guns in their backyard.
                        Probably because of the Jerusalem thing.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                          Fact is US spent money and blood killing enemies of Israel,while Israel was in a very comfortable position.
                          Can you please name one such war.

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                          • #73
                            The Iraq War.

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                            • #74
                              This has wandered far enough off course, so I'll just cherry pick & make it my last reply on this tangent.

                              Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                              I remind you that Israel has been kept out of fighting side by side with the US by the US. To then turn around and say that Israel hasn't fought side by side with the US so they can't be real allies is a cheap shot, to put it mildly.
                              That sounds like an accusation to me.
                              Neither, merely an accurate observation. Why you can't fight is irrelevant. If you detect an accusation of any sort it is directed at Canberra & to a lesser extent DC, not Tel Aviv. Whatever the reason your value as an ally is severly constrained.

                              And don't give me any crap about Pollard being unique, you can bet pretty much every single dollar you have, Australian, US or otherwise, that Australia spies on the US, the US spies on the UK, and everyone spies on everybody. This guy was stupid enough to get caught, end of story. Nothing new, unique, or particularly antagonizing here.
                              Pollard was just one of those who got caught....then there were those tech transfers to China. Lets not pretend this was a one-off.

                              US sees Israel, tight Mideast ally, as spy threat

                              As for me betting my money, my bet is that the most we do is snoop on some signals now and again (maybe), but that is about it. Why? 1) We aren't that great at spying, over a period of 60+ years somebody would have been caught; 2) We have a high level of interoperability wiht the US - including a number of joint intel gathering facilities on our soil - increasing the risk of detection; 3) We like to maintain our status as a trusted ally & don't want to lose our special privileges, which leads to ; 4) Under the 'Five Eyes' agreements Australia, Canada, the US & UK agree not to spy on each other. The consequences for being caught (well, for the smaller nations anyways) would be losing access to US intel. They've cut off the supply in the past for lesser infringements. We need them way more than they need us & we would be punished if caught.

                              Five Eyes partners apparently do not target each other, nor does any partner seek to evade their national laws by requesting or accepting such activity. There is, however, no formal way of ensuring such eavesdropping does not take place. Each partner is trusted to adhere to this ‘gentleman’s agreement’ between allies.
                              Canada and the Five Eyes Intelligence Community » CIC

                              So, you're pissed off at the situation, and I'm pissed off at the situation,
                              Probably not as pissed off as you think, just making a point about your value as an ally.

                              but for some reason, when I try and change the one element that will make things better, you attack me?
                              Lets not get overly sensitive here. I haven't 'attacked' you, I've pointed out what I see as Israel's failings/limitations as an ally. In that context what you may or may not want simply isn't relevant to how things are. Personally I'd like Australia to be less 'useful' to the US, but we aren't. I hope we both you get our way, but until then we assess things as they are.

                              "never provide bases" - The US Navy has made frequent port calls in the past, and US soldiers and Marines can be found nearly every day of the year on Israeli training bases all over Israel.
                              Which makes you more useful than Vietnam but probably less useful than Cyprus and little more useful than pretty much every nation on the Saudi penninsula & a truckload of others worldwide.

                              I will grant that perhaps "need" was not the most appropriate word to use. I'll reiterate my point once again: I firmly believe that the US-Israel relationship is strong enough to weather Israel telling the US it doesn't want US foreign aid anymore. I also believe that the ties between the US and Israel are string enough even without the US offering Israel foreign aid. Finally, the US has enough sticks AND carrots to use against Israel should they want to, I see no reason why if Israel has the ability to remove one of those carrots and/or sticks from the US arsenal, it shouldn't do so.
                              Yay! We finally got back to where we started. Yes, 'need' was overstating it. Your value as an ally is heavily constrained. Some of that is not your fault & can't be easily changed (if at all), some of that can be changed. I also agree that your alliance can easily survive you knocking back the money. Put simply, you will never find an ally as powerful as the US that is prepared to support you as consistently as the US. Never. That will always give them a big stick. Of course, in the end the money, like a lot of US policy on Israel, probably has more to do with internal US politics than any foreign policy necessity....but that is yet another tangent.
                              sigpic

                              Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                                Meanwhile, back on topic, Obama got to play the international statesman big time today

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                                I'm surprised Erdogan could hear Bibi over the sound of teeth grinding. Would love to know what Obama promised/threatened to get this done. be curious to see if it yields longer term results.
                                sigpic

                                Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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