Did Rommel cost Hitler WWII?

[astralis]

JAD,

Taking food from elsewhere in Europe to feed Germany had its limits and the shortages created in places like Vichy France were counterproductive. In his book Mein Kampf he writes of needing room to grow, Lebensraum, and he meant eastward. I realize he also saw the defeat of Russia in terms of a racial-ideological struggle, but uppermost in his mind was the need for food and land if the German peoples were to dominate Europe for "1000" years.

well, he didn't really care if other people starved. he didn't care that the dutch, aryan cousins, were starving by 1944.

a food shortage wasn't the main motivation for him taking on the USSR-- it was pure political ideology, and greed. he wanted to take the european half of russia and depopulate it, and move german settlers out there, but he believed this was going to be a 50-100 year project.

On a side note, it's interesting that Germany's prosperity in 1940 came about because of heavy deficit spending, the driving force being the build up of its military machine. In 1940, Hitler, believing he had won the war, actually slowed military production so industry could focus more on civilian consumption. Shades of today's effort to cut deficit spending...

indeed, the german war machine worked because hitler spent ruinous sums-- even in the short-term. he fully planned to make it up in war booty, and he did.

i don't think anyone is thinking the same thing now...:)

but why then bother with Poland? It was no great threat. It sat on the best routes to Russia. If France and England had not gone to war over Poland, what would have come next? IMO, Russia. Outright attacking France and England would only hasten the entry of the US into the war.

hitler purposefully went to war with poland -because- he wanted a war with France and the UK. he wanted a war back in 1938 over czechslovakia, but to his surprise and annoyance the french and the UK actually kowtowed.

hitler wanted to hit the USSR but he wanted to knock out france and the UK first. he didn't think the US was going to intervene, and even if it did, who cared what that nation of mongrels and jew-lovers did?

Except that he would have pissed away his military resources trying to match the output of the US which was pouring stuff into N.Africa.

i have my doubts the US was going to go into europe or north africa without the USSR tying up some 75-85% of hitler's war machine. hell, the USSR would probably still be giving hitler materiel in this timeline.

[Officer of Engineers]

hitler purposefully went to war with poland -because- he wanted a war with France and the UK. he wanted a war back in 1938 over czechslovakia, but to his surprise and annoyance the french and the UK actually kowtowed.

We should have went. Hell, even if the Czechs went at it alone, Hitler would have been out of power the next year.

[astralis]

yeah, i'm surprised czechslovakia agreed. they HAD to know that the border fortresses were worth a lot more than whatever help france or the UK could give.

of course if hitler went out of power, the replacement would probably have been some right-wing nationalist. probably wouldn't have the insane dreams of hitler and his genocidal tendencies, but it wouldn't have been pleasant either.

amazing the difference a year makes.

[Blademaster]

We should have went. Hell, even if the Czechs went at it alone, Hitler would have been out of power the next year.

How were the border fortresses any different from the Maginot Line? If the Wehrmacht could get around the Maginot Line, then the odds are that they could do the same thing to Czechoslovakia. Not to mention that there were a sizable German population in Czechoslovakia that could hamstring the Czechs' defensive efforts.

[Blademaster]

i dunno. if germany was content with its holdings as of june 1940 hitler would have gone down as an utter genius.

hell if he was content with his holdings of 1938 he'd have gone down as another bismarck.

if he had waited until the Soviets attacked Poland and the Poles were screaming for help, UK and France would had no choice but to turn to Germany and ask for its help and forgive its past trangressions and completely repeal the Versailles treaty to counter the communism threat. Then Hitler would have been the Ironman of Europe. But then again, Hitler was a nutcase and the rest was history.

[Blademaster]

i have my doubts the US was going to go into europe or north africa without the USSR tying up some 75-85% of hitler's war machine. hell, the USSR would probably still be giving hitler materiel in this timeline.

If hitler had been smart to break off the alliance with Japan and make peace overtures to US, the isolationists would have enough ammunition to force FDR to stay out of the European conflict and force FDR to devote all of its resources to the Pacific theater. But hitler underestimated US and went with Japan.

[Officer of Engineers]

How were the border fortresses any different from the Maginot Line? If the Wehrmacht could get around the Maginot Line, then the odds are that they could do the same thing to Czechoslovakia. Not to mention that there were a sizable German population in Czechoslovakia that could hamstring the Czechs' defensive efforts.

The Sudetland itself was one big fortress. There was no Belgian to bypass. The LOCs were also fortified and preplanned. It would have been damned hard for a 5th Column to disrupt. All told, every scenario I've seen said that the Germans would have won ... but would have spent at least half if not more of their army doing it.

Also, do recall that half the tanks used against France and Great Britain came from the Czechs. With the resulting loss of the engagement against the Czechs, the Germans would have only 25% of the actual tanks.

The Germans would have lost WWII even before it began if they took on the Czechs.

[Blademaster]

Hmm... If the German Army got bogged down in Czech as you suggested, then the French Army could head in from the west and apply pressure. Hindsight is always 20/20. Why did the Czechs surrender?

[Officer of Engineers]

The primary reason is that they all remember WWI and its carnage. That experience should have been easy to duplicate. We speak now about what should have been done but we ignore the historic repulsion to another slaughter of such grand scale. The irony is that repulsion lead to another much bigger slaughter.

The Czechs was not going to win. The best they could hope for was to take the Germans down with them. So why go through such blood when the end result is the same?

Had the British or the French backed them, the Czechs would still lose the military engagement but the Germans would have been forced to retreat from their gains.

[zraver]

The primary reason is that they all remember WWI and its carnage. That experience should have been easy to duplicate. We speak now about what should have been done but we ignore the historic repulsion to another slaughter of such grand scale. The irony is that repulsion lead to another much bigger slaughter.

The Czechs was not going to win. The best they could hope for was to take the Germans down with them. So why go through such blood when the end result is the same?

Had the British or the French backed them, the Czechs would still lose the military engagement but the Germans would have been forced to retreat from their gains.

Sir, not at all sure Germany could have beaten the Czechs. Certaily Germany could dominate the air, but on the ground its a different story. The Czechs were dug in behind fortifications, had ample mobile reserves and were well trained. The Germans also lacked siege artillery.

OOB 1938

Czechlovakia
4x armored divisions (1 tank and 1 cav bgd each)
1x motorized infantry divisions
20 rifle divisions
4x fortress divisions
138x other reserve, light infantry and guard battalions (21 divisions total)
324 fighter aircraft in front line squadrons +200 in training and reserve roles
124 medium bombers (MB.200)

vs

Germany
2x motorized divsions
1x paratroop divisions
35x infantry divsions
17x landwehr (reserve) divisions
1100 fighters (800ish are me109 the rest are he-51 biplanes)
500 bombers (mixed stuka and twin engined)

Germany also has 4 panzer and 3 light divisions forming but not yet ready and active. Most German tanks lack 37mm+ cannon

[USSWisconsin]

Sir, not at all sure Germany could have beaten the Czechs. Certaily Germany could dominate the air, but on the ground its a different story. The Czechs were dug in behind fortifications, had ample mobile reserves and were well trained. The Germans also lacked siege artillery.

OOB 1938

Czechlovakia
4x armored divisions (1 tank and 1 cav bgd each)
1x motorized infantry divisions
20 rifle divisions
4x fortress divisions
138x other reserve, light infantry and guard battalions (21 divisions total)
324 fighter aircraft in front line squadrons +200 in training and reserve roles
124 medium bombers (MB.200)

vs

Germany
2x motorized divsions
1x paratroop divisions
35x infantry divsions
17x landwehr (reserve) divisions
1100 fighters (800ish are me109 the rest are he-51 biplanes)
500 bombers (mixed stuka and twin engined)

Germany also has 4 panzer and 3 light divisions forming but not yet ready and active. Most German tanks lack 37mm+ cannon

What kind of generals did the Czech's have? The French had some substantial numbers advantages over the Germans too, but it didn't help them.

[USSWisconsin]

If hitler had been smart to break off the alliance with Japan and make peace overtures to US, the isolationists would have enough ammunition to force FDR to stay out of the European conflict and force FDR to devote all of its resources to the Pacific theater. But hitler underestimated US and went with Japan.

What about the U-boat attacks on US shipping and the US support for Britain?

[zraver]

What kind of generals did the Czech's have? The French had some substantial numbers advantages over the Germans too, but it didn't help them.

I don't know. However, Czechoslovakia wasn't scarred by WWI in the same way that France was. Czech performance in WWI and II, basic geography and the state of Czech armaments indicate a competent military establishment.

[Blademaster]

What about the U-boat attacks on US shipping and the US support for Britain?

Look at the size of US economy and the population and think about whether you want US as an enemy, especially when you are fighting against USSR. Hitler was very stupid. He pissed off everybody and had everybody gunning for him. He basically unified two totally incompatible nations, the US and USSR against Germany, in itself an impressive feat. US's material support basically allowed USSR to overcome its obstacles and steamroll Germany.

[JAD_333]

The Germans would have lost WWII even before it began if they took on the Czechs.

Unfortunately, their defensive line was in the German-speaking part of the country, the Sudetenland. Once it was gone, they had been weakened too much to take on the German army with any hope of success.

From another perspective, if England and France had seen a strong possibility that the Czechs could stop Hitler's expansion, they may have drawn the line there instead of Poland. But I suspect they couldn't count on the Czechs to do much because the majority of the population of the Sudetenland was of German extraction and sympathetic to Hitler.