Originally posted by JAD_333
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Parody, the rage at Khe Sanh.
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Once again i have to repeat an American saying during the war against the Indian natives: "The winner takes it all".
Hanoi took the entire Indo-China territory (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia) as final result.
As for the battle of Khe Sanh 1968, Hanoi took control of it afterwards.
It's for your right if you stand in Saigon or furthermore in New York and declare victory of Khe Sanh.
It's your right to declare victory even of Mars.
Hanoi stands in Khe Sanh and declares victory over Khe Sanh. Simply, very simply what however makes the difference.
The Wehrmacht, at least, never declared victory of any position what was being out of his control. It's the honor.Last edited by Wehrmacht; 10 Mar 13,, 17:47.
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I quote JAD:
Perhaps he doesn't understand that losing a war does not make every battle within in a loss.
Let's look at something more recent, and relevant to you: Operation Market Garden, an abysmal failure for allied troops, one that extended the war well into 1945 instead of being in Berlin by Christmas. Have the allied forces/countries tried to rewrite Market Garden into a victory? Not at all. Battles and Wars are two entirely different things, and until you can accept that, then everything else you say is suspect because it's painfully and clearly obvious you have no bloody idea what you're talking aboutMeddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.
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Originally posted by Wehrmacht View PostHanoi took the entire Indo-China territory (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia) as final result.
Originally posted by Wehrmacht View PostAs for the battle of Khe Sanh 1968, Hanoi took control of it afterwards.
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Is this guy a fanboy, chew toy, or just too dumb to realize that when people that know the subject matter much better than he does, he should shut up and listen?Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostWrong. Dumbass.
After the Americans left and after they buried their dead.
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Why don't you get that Hanoi had nothing to do with Khe Sanh? The Americans left because they wanted to, Hanoi had no say, part or play in the matter.Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.
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Originally posted by bigross86 View PostWhy don't you get that Hanoi had nothing to do with Khe Sanh? The Americans left because they wanted to, Hanoi had no say, part or play in the matter.
2./ Check it out:
36. “U.S. Says Khe Sanh Abandonment Not Military Loss,” AP, June 27, 1968.
37. “Hanoi Says Troops at Khe Sanh Base,” AP, July 9, ...
This Time We Win: Revisiting the Tet Offensive - James S. Robbins - Google Books
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You, sir, are a bloody fool. Let me give you yet another example:
In 1948, the newly formed IDF tried capturing Latrun from the Arab Legion 4 times, and was rebuffed 4 times. In 1967 the IDF set up a massive ORBAT to take Latrun and discovered that the place was empty, the Legion had cleared out a while back and no one in the IDF even knew.
As it stands now, Israel has possession of Latrun. That doesn't change the fact that the Arab Legion defeated the IDF in 4 battles. It does not mean the IDF defeated the Legion in the 5th battle, especially since the Legion never showed up! Possession of an area does not mean you can change the history of the area. The IDF lost 4 out of 5 battles for Latrun (and won the 5th because the enemy didn't show up). The NVA did not win Khe Sanh and the Americans left under their own terms, and it doesn't make a difference who has control of Khe Sanh at the moment. The facts don't change, and the NVA didn't kick the Americans out of Khe Sanh.Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.
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Be that as it may (and you have a Lt. Col telling you otherwise), that doesn't change the fact that they didn't kick the Americans out of Khe Sanh, they left voluntarily. Are you aware that any war is split into several and sometimes many battlefields, and that winning a war does not mean you won every single battle you fought in that war? I've given you three examples, why don't you understand?
Holland still controls Eindhoven, does that mean that the Allies succeeded in Market Garden? No, Market Garden was a bad loss for the allies a nasty defeat. That doesn't change the fact that the Allies DID win the war.
The North Vietnamese won the war, yes. That doesn't mean they won every battle in the war, and Khe Sanh is a battle they just did NOT winMeddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.
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Originally posted by bigross86 View PostThe North Vietnamese won the war, yes. That doesn't mean they won every battle in the war, and Khe Sanh is a battle they just did NOT win
Let this photograph, taken during the final evacuation at Khe Sanh July 1968, tells the fact of Khe Sanh at all:
Disorderly, chaotically, rifles in left hands ....
Last edited by Wehrmacht; 10 Mar 13,, 18:44.
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Yes, I'm being disappointed. Disappointed because you're a bloody fool that won't listen to plain and simple logic.
I hate to tell you, but that picture proves my point more than it does yours.... If the Americans were kicked out of Khe Sanh, they would be leaving in a fighting retreat. They would not be carrying suitcases and their rifles in their left hands, they would be carrying nothing but their rifles and their combat gear, their rifles would be in a ready position and there would be additional troops laying down covering fire for those leaving. All I see in this picture is people running to a chopper for a quick evac from a combat area.
Once again, let's go over the simple facts:
1) There are many battles in a war zone
2) Winning a war does not mean you won every single battle in that war
Now, once you acknowledge that, let's look at the specifics:
A) The Americans held on to Khe Sanh no matter how hard the NVA tried to kick them out
B) The Americans left Khe Sanh because they wanted to, not because they were kicked out by the NVA. The evacuation was planned, not forced upon them.
C) The Americans were strong enough to return to Khe Sanh in 1971.
And let's go back to our original facts, and put them in context:
I) "There are many battles in a war zone" - In this instance, Khe Sanh was merely one battle in a years long Vietnam War
II) "Winning a war does not mean you won every single battle in that war" - The fact that the North won the Vietnam War does not mean that the NVA won the battle at Khe Sanh.
I simply, honestly can not make it any clearer than it is now.Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.
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Originally posted by Wehrmacht View PostWell, Hanoi gave Americans the right to withdraw from Khe Sanh
Originally posted by Wehrmacht View Postand then declare victory of Khe Sanh
Originally posted by Wehrmacht View Postwhile standing inside the Contiguous US plus Alaska or wherever outside of Indo-China territory.
You suck at history.
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He doesn't suck at history, we're just not privy to HIS account of how it actually happened... We're too bogged down with facts to see the full pictureMeddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.
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