Originally posted by zraver
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What if Nixon Succeeded
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostJason, Captain Lemontree's father was part of the ambulance tasked to that mission. He was on the tarmac which meant the initial entry force has already left.
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Originally posted by zraver View PostDarth,
I don't know, some of Nixon's FP moves were brilliant others were balsy. Compared to some Presidents his FP acumen is outstanding.
Originally posted by Doktor View PostZ, Darth,
The way I understand it from the other thread, Indira has given orders DG to get hit. And she did that after Big-E bumped into BoB.
EDIT: OOE if part of the forces had already left something major must have happened to stop the operation?Last edited by DarthSiddius; 21 Aug 13,, 18:00.
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Originally posted by DarthSiddius View PostThe important thing to consider here is that the mission was not given a go ahead could be just the military preparing itself for a scenario involving the US, contingencies?
From Captain Lemontree's details. His father was on an ambulance and he was on the tarmac before HE got the stand down. That tells us two things.
1) This was a brigade level operation (only brigades and up have ambulances tasked to them). Actually, for the InA, only divisions have ambulances but that is way too big of a formation.
2) The ambulance was on the tarmac. That meant the initial entry force had already left.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
2) The ambulance was on the tarmac. That meant the initial entry force had already left.
Plus I wonder if it was larger than a battalion with the ambulances assigned based on the special nature of the mission. DG simply does not have the resources to sustain a brigade. In the 1960's and early 70's it has a single stagnant freshwater marsh with no springs or flowing water. Foods is less of a problem in the short term, lots of feral pigs and chickens but a brigade sized force will eat all of them in the medium/long term. Plus there is no chance of rescue or resupply and every chance of massive escalation with the US.
With US sensitivity to POWs in the 1970's, the Son Tay raid was just a year earlier it seems an almost deliberate way to provoke an unwinnable war. The Soviets would not go to bat for India anymore than they would for Cuba, North Korea or Syria.
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Originally posted by DarthSiddius View PostWe don't really have a lot of information regarding that aborted operation, speculations aside (not disputing said speculations) what it tells us is had the US gotten itself intimately involved, things could have had escalated, we have been extremely lucky that some of these events did not come to pass. The important thing to consider here is that the mission was not given a go ahead could be just the military preparing itself for a scenario involving the US, contingencies?
I can't digest this. US must have had the info on what is going on in Bangladesh. Even more, some guys in various agencies must have had few chess parties. The Indian response in EP shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone. On top of that, when Chinese said "We will skip this one" why he raised the bets?No such thing as a good tax - Churchill
To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.
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zraver, india knew the US would show up once we intervened in east pakistan.
Again, As Late Indian Prime Minister IK Gujral describes:
It(bangla genocide) was not a sudden development. And we had at our hand ten million refugees in India. And Mrs. Gandhi was going from one capital of the world to the other trying to persuade to tell them, "Please do something now. It'll be difficult otherwise." But it was happening. And...was in a very benevolent, I'm sorry. Very belligerent mood. Also we were seeing that the American strategy was adverse to us. And now we were trying to find, trying to see that not only that the Americans were giving arms to Pakistan, that if need be they were willing to confront India. Threats there had been given to us by Kissinger and others. And I can tell you in retrospect because I'm privy of this information that we really went into negotiation for a treaty with Soviet Union after we were convinced of the belligerency of the other super power. '71 proved it conclusively when we got a direct threat of seventh fleet intervention.
1971 for the first time proved what we were suspecting earlier. We were suspecting that there were certain commitments on the part of Americans with Pakistan's defense.Last edited by anil; 21 Aug 13,, 19:24.
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Originally posted by zraver View Postor was at a different airstrip.
Plus I wonder if it was larger than a battalion with the ambulances assigned based on the special nature of the mission. DG simply does not have the resources to sustain a brigade. In the 1960's and early 70's it has a single stagnant freshwater marsh with no springs or flowing water. Foods is less of a problem in the short term, lots of feral pigs and chickens but a brigade sized force will eat all of them in the medium/long term. Plus there is no chance of rescue or resupply and every chance of massive escalation with the US.
With US sensitivity to POWs in the 1970's, the Son Tay raid was just a year earlier it seems an almost deliberate way to provoke an unwinnable war. The Soviets would not go to bat for India anymore than they would for Cuba, North Korea or Syria.
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Originally posted by Doktor View PostAnd for what? Solidarity with Pakistan?
I can't digest this. US must have had the info on what is going on in Bangladesh. Even more, some guys in various agencies must have had few chess parties. The Indian response in EP shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone. On top of that, when Chinese said "We will skip this one" why he raised the bets?
So the Americans knew exactly what the pakistanis were doing there. But national interest trumps all, and the Nixon admin determined that at that time the US's interests were served by supporting Yahya Khan and letting his army do what they want to the East Pakistanis. "To all hands, don’t squeeze Yahya at this time,” was in Nixon's handwritten note found when the papers of that era were declassified.
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Originally posted by DarthSiddius View PostOOE if part of the forces had already left something major must have happened to stop the operation?
Originally posted by zraver View Postor was at a different airstrip.
Originally posted by zraver View PostPlus I wonder if it was larger than a battalion with the ambulances assigned based on the special nature of the mission.
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Originally posted by anil View Postzraver, india knew the US would show up once we intervened in east pakistan.
Again, As Late Indian Prime Minister IK Gujral describes:
We signed a strategic treaty with the russians because indian politicians had determined absolutely sure that the US would come for pakistan.
One aircraft carrier(USS enterprise) showed up on that day. If india hadn't gotten into an agreement with the russians, many more than one carrier would have showed up in the bay of bengal.
Blademaster,
In 1971 India was not on par with China sorry. India had less than 100 supersonic aircraft and only 600 combat aircraft total. Her only real strike platform was the Canberra and she had only a limited number of them. Her air defense and radar network was virtually nonexistent with no real SAM capability. She compensated to an extent with training. But it remains that her relative and growing weakness vis a vis Pakistan and China following a UK arms embargo is what made the deal with the Soviets so attractive.
That being said, the Soviets still were not going to risk national suicide for India. It was a fundamental weakness f the Soviets, they were never really emotionally invested outside of Eastern Europe. Not one during the Cold War when push came to shove and the US stepped up to bat did the Soviets play hardball, every single time they rolled over, showed their belly and slinked away. The Soviets were terrified of the US, they called us Cowboys, they really though if they pushed us, we'd push the button. Operation Chrome Dome had just recently ended and it was then in Sept 1971 that the two sides installed the red line. Plus both sides were already talking about SALT. If push came to shove the Soviets would observe but not interfere.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostCaptain Lemontree's father did received his stand down. So, someone smarten up.
Can't see it. It was an adhoc operation, so trying to co-ordinate so many flights from different airstrips to arrive on schedule would be ... hell, I don't think we could have done it ad-hoc.
The ambulance part bugs me. I would have left it behind but water purification would be worth more than ambulance. The only thing that I can think of is that this is adhoc, here's the unit we've got available. It's got an ambulance. Send it. We don't have time to figure out what to replace it with.
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