Page 3 of 20 FirstFirst 123456789101112 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 295

Thread: What if Nixon Succeeded

  1. #31
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
    Join Date
    25 Aug 08
    Location
    Skopje, Macedonia
    Posts
    13,668
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    The US was already backing the Chinese post-'60s.
    Kissinger 1971, Nixon 1972.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  2. #32
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Dec 04
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    3,960
    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Kissinger 1971, Nixon 1972.
    During the Sino-Soviet border war in '69, it were American nukes which were holding back the Soviet armies from invading China.
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

  3. #33
    Officer of Engineers
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    During the Sino-Soviet border war in '69, it were American nukes which were holding back the Soviet armies from invading China.
    Soviets weren't ready in 69. They were ready as of 72 and on full spring board mode in 73.

  4. #34
    Military Professional Deltacamelately's Avatar
    Join Date
    29 Sep 07
    Posts
    1,663
    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Soviets weren't ready in 69. They were ready as of 72 and on full spring board mode in 73.
    Sir,

    Yet Nixon believed the PRC would fall in line as per his contingency?
    And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

  5. #35
    Officer of Engineers
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    Sir,

    Yet Nixon believed the PRC would fall in line as per his contingency?
    I don't see how. The Chinese were busy getting ready to face the Soviets and they were scrambling to get the last of their troops out of Vietnam to move north. They could not remobilize and reorient themselves fast enough to make a difference. At best, a punitive expedition after the fall of East Pakistan.

  6. #36
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Bandaid

    Join Date
    04 Oct 04
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,996
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    There's a reason the invasion of East Pakistan was planned for December. The Himalayan passes are sealed due to heavy snow during the winter, allowing India to pull away troops from the Chinese border and concentrate them on her Eastern and Western fronts.
    This left only one approach for the PLA into India - Walong sector in Arunachal Pradesh. All other sectors were a no go area due to the snow.
    Walong was well covered in 1971.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  7. #37
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    15 Dec 06
    Posts
    1,003
    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree View Post
    This left only one approach for the PLA into India - Walong sector in Arunachal Pradesh. All other sectors were a no go area due to the snow.
    Walong was well covered in 1971.
    What about attacking through Bhutan? The PLA could have quickly overwhelmed the small Bhutanese forces, made a mad dash across western Bhutan and tried to strike straight at the Chicken's neck area. If it was fairly early during the war, any PA units present in northern east pakistan could have assisted by attacking from the south. The objective of course would be to cut off the entire northeast from the rest of India. But I'm unfamiliar with the topography of the region and don't know if this could be possible in winter.

  8. #38
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Dec 04
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    3,960
    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Soviets weren't ready in 69. They were ready as of 72 and on full spring board mode in 73.
    I stand corrected, sir. Though I guess it still shows the intent to back China, whenever the Soviets got ready.
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

  9. #39
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    14 Mar 08
    Posts
    1,900
    I doubt that even western Bhutan is suitable for that sort of combat ops.

  10. #40
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Bandaid

    Join Date
    04 Oct 04
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,996
    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    What about attacking through Bhutan? The PLA could have quickly overwhelmed the small Bhutanese forces, made a mad dash across western Bhutan and tried to strike straight at the Chicken's neck area. If it was fairly early during the war, any PA units present in northern east pakistan could have assisted by attacking from the south. The objective of course would be to cut off the entire northeast from the rest of India. But I'm unfamiliar with the topography of the region and don't know if this could be possible in winter.
    Bhutan is an Indian protectorate state.
    The PLA will face the same terrian and climatic restrictions as in other regions.
    Another thing, there can be no mad dash in mountains like in plains/ deserts.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  11. #41
    Staff Emeritus
    Military Professional
    Contrary by Nature.
    zraver's Avatar
    Join Date
    22 Oct 06
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,499
    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree View Post
    Bhutan is an Indian protectorate state.
    The PLA will face the same terrian and climatic restrictions as in other regions.
    Another thing, there can be no mad dash in mountains like in plains/ deserts.
    Sir, dissagree, look at the Battle of Capparetto in WWI.

  12. #42
    Military Professional Deltacamelately's Avatar
    Join Date
    29 Sep 07
    Posts
    1,663
    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Sir, dissagree, look at the Battle of Capparetto in WWI.
    Jason,

    Many striking differences -

    1. The terrain is very different.
    2. The Italian defence was extremely weak, lacked moral, had practically no mobile reserves and surrendered en-mass.
    3. Their forces failed to give any meaningful counter fire, gave away all weather and tactical info over the radio.
    4. The Germans along with arty fire, generously used poison gas, not possible in the current context.
    And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

  13. #43
    Contributor anil's Avatar
    Join Date
    20 Sep 12
    Location
    Mumbai
    Posts
    724
    Quote Originally Posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    Gentlemen, many of my course mates have discussed this and its indeed an intriguing scenario.

    What if Nixon was successful in convincing/coercing the Chinese to open the southern theatre with India in 1971, atleast 15 days before East Pakistan collapsed? How would that shape the course of the war? Would Bangladesh still come into existence?

    I would like your individual analysis on this.

    Regards,
    @Deltacamelately

    From a 1987 interview with K Subrahmanyam

    Bengal Conflict

    Interviewer: HOW DID INDIA'S SECURITY CONCERNS CHANGE DURING THE PERIOD THAT MRS. GANDHI WAS IN OFFICE THE FIRST TIME, '66-'77?

    Subramanvam: Well it, the first major security crisis in 1971 when the Pakistani military action in Bengal exploded in such terrific violence and there were ten million refugees on... pushed into, onto our soil. And we had to face that situation. But the Pakistan's supported tacitly by the United States administration and China. And that was a very difficult period. And that was the period in which in order to countervail that inference India had turned to a friendship treaty with the Soviet Union which was a countervailing measure at that stage. But at the same time it drove home to India the point that India was in a very difficult position facing a combination of powers like the United States, China and Pakistan at that stage. Therefore we came through that crisis even though... I would say successfully. But it did leave India with the considerable concern about its security for the future.

    Interviewer: WHY DID INDIA SIGN A FRIENDSHIP TREATY WITH THE SOVIET UNION? WHAT DID SHE HAVE TO GAIN FROM IT?

    Subramanvam: Well it was meant to be a countervailing inference against the United States going too far in its support to Pakistan. And it was proved in 1971 December, if you read Dr. Kissinger's memoirs, he himself says the US administration asked China to move against India and the Chinese asked the question, "What happens if the Soviet Union moved against China?" Even though in, the United States did give some guarantees to China about that contingency China did not move. And therefore it was quite obvious that the Indian action of entering into the friendship treaty with the Soviet did succeed in restraining China from acting in spite of all the goading from the United States.

    Interviewer: HOW DID YOU INTERPRET NIXON'S DECISION TO SEND THE USS. ENTERPRISE INTO THE BAY OF BENGAL?

    Subramanvam: Well it was one of the instances of what is known as demonstration of use of force without war, or diplomacy. And it didn't succeed. But it didn't succeed partly because for the fact the Enterprise came around two days late.

    Interviewer: IN YOUR WRITING YOU'VE ALSO REFERRED TO IT AS THE ATOMIC GUNBOAT DIPLOMACY. WOULD YOU REMIND REPEATING THAT?

    Subramanvam: Yes. Actually when you send your task force with the...

    Interviewer: HOW DID YOU INTERPRET NIXON'S DECISION TO SEND THE USS. ENTERPRISE INTO THE BAY OF BENGAL DURING THE '71 WAR?

    Subramanvam: It was a piece of class of diplomacy, when your... vessel which is known to contain nuclear weapons was sent into the Bay of Bengal in an attempt to exercise intimidation on India.

    Interviewer: WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO PRESIDENT NIXON'S DECISION TO SEND THE USS. ENTERPRISE INTO THE BAY OF BENGAL AND WAS INDIA ALSO CONCERNED CHINA WOULD INTERVENE AT THAT POINT?

    Subramanvam: We were not very worried about China intervening at that point because the passes were covered with snow.

    Interviewer: [REPEATS QUESTION]

    Subramanvam: It was a threat because the Enterprise had come in close enough to the shores of Bangladesh. Then they could have started flying in the aircraft over Dhaka in which case it could have faced India with a problem whether the Indian air force should fire on the US aircraft.

    Interviewer: WHAT EFFECT DID THIS HAVE ON FOREIGN POLICY?

    Subramanvam: Well it would have stagnated completely the liberation of Bangladesh.
    Transcript
    Interview with Kandury Subramanvam, 1987 - WGBH Open Vault

    Video interview
    Interview with Kandury Subramanvam, 1987 - WGBH Open Vault
    Last edited by anil; 17 Aug 13, at 12:04.

  14. #44
    Military Professional Deltacamelately's Avatar
    Join Date
    29 Sep 07
    Posts
    1,663
    Quote Originally Posted by anil View Post
    Anil,

    Thanks for the the links. Though much of what is written is known to most of us, I would be more interested to know your personal analysis on the subject.
    And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

  15. #45
    Contributor anil's Avatar
    Join Date
    20 Sep 12
    Location
    Mumbai
    Posts
    724
    India(with Russia as its protectorate)
    v/s
    Pakistan(with US and china as its protectorate)

    --------

    The chinese will not fight a war in which they don't think they can win

    The americans will engage as long as the opponent doesn't acquire the capability to open a front(theater) on CONUS. If you go by this countrys past history, a logical front has to start with first strike.

    --------

    If the chinese had opened a front into india, the russians would have done the same. But the chinese knew that both of them have a capability that causes each to hesitate from ever fighting a real battle. So in reality, the US guarantee to china was lip service.

    I personally and strongly feel that non-alignment was a mistake. India should have given the russians military bases around india. It would have given the russians confidence in india.

    My actual unease is that 1971 keeps happening again and again. Kargil, 2003 stand off, mumbai attacks etc are nothing but a repeat of the 1971 predicament which subramaniam described as, that, "India is in a very difficult position facing a combination of powers like the United States, China and Pakistan".

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Only Nixon can go to China
    By gunnut in forum East Asia and the Pacific
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 20 Sep 10,, 20:54
  2. Richard Nixon Good or Bad President?
    By Freeloader in forum American Politics & Economy
    Replies: 156
    Last Post: 16 Sep 09,, 15:56
  3. Troopergate : When Nixon met Sarah
    By Traps in forum American Politics & Economy
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 12 Oct 08,, 07:36
  4. Great Rulers Succeeded by Nincompoops
    By Amled in forum Ancient, Medieval & Early Modern Ages
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07 Jun 06,, 01:48
  5. Nixon's approach to cold war
    By Hindle in forum Ground Warfare
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 15 May 06,, 20:57

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •