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Thread: What if Nixon Succeeded

  1. #286
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Captain,

    How hard is for prepared units to make a totally fake grid?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  2. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Captain,

    How hard is for prepared units to make a totally fake grid?
    The hard part is knowing where to prepare the fake grid. Besides, fake grids are hard to maintain.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree View Post
    The hard part is knowing where to prepare the fake grid. Besides, fake grids are hard to maintain.
    Not challenging your knowledge, but the maintaining part seems pretty easy to this amateur.

    All you need is bunch of radios, a master bee (HQ) that would send-receive most of the msgs and to make it constant. Am even wondering if there is a SW for that. The power could be an issue.

    As for where... where you'd expect it most
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  4. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Not challenging your knowledge, but the maintaining part seems pretty easy to this amateur.

    All you need is bunch of radios, a master bee (HQ) that would send-receive most of the msgs and to make it constant. Am even wondering if there is a SW for that. The power could be an issue.

    As for where... where you'd expect it most
    A quick photo recce will show no movement commensurate with the deployment of a given formation.
    When a formation is deployed, there in intra unit movement with is caught by satellitile and aerial recce.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  5. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree View Post
    I think you mean colonial mindset. The British officer was a very respected individual by the rank and file and all old timers spoke of their command with respect. The odd clod did show up but they were exceptions than the norm.
    Yes you are correct, thank you for pointing it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree View Post
    You are referring to the mindset within the Punjabi dominated PA officer lot, who look down upon all things civilian. We have a few of them too, but our civilian bureaucrats/politician system keeps them in check.
    It is true that Civilians are looked down upon by the Army folks. Reason is simple, it is due to their sheer incompetence. PA is the only institution in Pakistan that is disciplined and operates with efficiency. India is a different story because you have efficient and organized bureaucratic and political institutions. They are not found here in Pakistan, try filing an FIR in a Police Station and you will know what i am talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree View Post
    I'm sure you have officers who lead from the front, but I am refering to the regular unit officers - the 2nd LTs to Major level; you need them on the front line with the troops, more than the Brigadiers and Maj Generals, whose example you have given.

    You have to check the officer to soldier causality ratio to understand what I mean by junior officer leadership.
    Unfortunately its way to high, we have lost to many Majors, Colonels and Captains. It is drilled down among every Officer to lead from the front, work as a team with the Jawans and NCO's.

  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by notorious_eagle View Post
    India is a different story because you have efficient and organized bureaucratic and political institutions.
    Where on earth did you get that idea?!

    Difference between Indian and Pakistani institutions isn't one of efficiency, but of stability. Indian institutions are not efficient but they can be gradually made so over time, since their roots have been allowed to grow deep in Indian society. Pakistan's army has never allowed similar for Pakistan's institutions and that is why they remain so fragile and weak. Efficient institutions can only be achieved gradually over time, not overnight.
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  7. #292
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    Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I thought this article should be posted here:

    Playing at War

    It's long but goes into a lot of details about Nixon's and Kissinger's activities and thought processes during that time, especially how they bent and subverted US laws over the objections of the State Department to supply arms to Pakistan. It is clear that they actually believed incorrect intelligence about India wanting to "crush" West Pakistan after they were done with the east and almost started another Indo-China war (not to mention a possible Sino-Soviet war) because of it. My disgust for Kissinger only continues to grow.

    One of his exploits:
    Kissinger now proposed three dangerous initiatives. The United States would illegally allow Iran and Jordan to send squadrons of US aircraft to Pakistan, secretly ask China to mass its troops on the Indian border, and deploy a US aircraft carrier group to the Bay of Bengal to threaten India. He urged Nixon to stun India with all three moves simultaneously.

    a squadron of Jordanian F-104s had gone to Pakistan, totaling twelve warplanes. En route the planes stopped in Saudi Arabia, with some of them flown by Jordanian pilots and others allegedly guarded by Pakistanis. The State Department, too, observed eleven of these Jordanian F-104s in Saudi Arabia, and surmised they were bound for Pakistan. While the US embassy in Amman was never notified, its staffers did notice a conspicuous absence of Jordanian fighter pilots at their favorite bars. Haig secretly told a Chinese delegation that Jordan had sent six fighter aircraft to Pakistan and would send eight more soon; Iran was replacing Jordan’s lost airplanes; and Turkey might be sending as many as twenty-two planes. Kissinger assured the Chinese, “Jordan has now sent fourteen aircraft to Pakistan and is considering sending three more.” Nixon later asked, “Did the Jordan[ian]s send planes[?]” Kissinger replied, "17".

    Now Kissinger could ask China to move its troops toward India’s border. Nixon, keen for the People’s Liberation Army to deploy its soldiers, was convinced India would back down: “these Indians are cowards.” About the Chinese, he said, “All they’ve got to do is move something. Move their, move a division. You know, move some trucks. Fly some planes. You know, some symbolic act. We’re not doing a god-damn thing, Henry, you know that.”
    And all this to shield a regime conducting a genocide.

    There are other nice gems in there, like this one:

    Jacob remembers that India actually had only three thousand troops outside of Dacca, while Pakistan still had over twenty-six thousand in the city. “Just go and get a surrender,” Manekshaw told Jacob. He rushed onto a helicopter, joined by the wife of his superior, Lieutenant General Jagjit Singh Aurora, the general officer commanding-in-chief of the Eastern Command, who said that her place was with her husband. When they landed in Dacca, Jacob remembers, there was still fighting going on between the Mukti Bahini and Pakistani troops. As insurgents shot at his car, he jumped up to show them his olive green Indian army uniform, which stopped their firing. Once he got to Pakistani headquarters, Jacob remembers, General Niazi said, “Who said I’m surrendering? I only came here for a cease-fire.” Alone and acutely aware of how outnumbered the Indians really were at the moment, he took Niazi aside. Jacob recalls, “I said, ‘You surrender, we take care of you, your families, and ethnic minorities. If you don’t, what can I do? I wash my hands.’ He said I blackmailed him, to have him bayoneted. I said, ‘I’ll give you thirty minutes, and if you don’t agree, I’ll order the resumption of hostilities and the bombing of Dacca.’ ” As Jacob walked out, “I thought, my God, I have nothing in my hand.” But Niazi, surely knowing how many more Indian troops were following the tip of the spear outside Dacca, yielded.

    Preserving the Pakistanis’ dignity, Jacob says, they set up solemn ceremonies at the Race Course. Niazi handed a pistol to Aurora. When Sydney Schanberg, covering it for The New York Times, told Jacob that the surrender of a Pakistani general to a Jewish Indian general made one hell of a story, Jacob indignantly told him not to write it.
    So India's final push at Dhaka which caused Niazi to surrender was little more than a bluff. Also seems to suggest that the Pakistanis were never seriously thinking of fighting to the last man to save Dhaka. I'm guessing it would have been different had it been any West Pakistani city.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 27 Sep 13, at 22:00.

  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree View Post
    All that only helps to prevent tapping of the converstion/ message, but the location emitting the signals remains the same. It is this location that is identified and registered.
    Freq hopping also makes jamming a lot more difficult and depending on how far apart the hops are and how fast the system cycles it can make mapping out the locations of the transmitters more difficult.

  9. #294
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    1971 was a big mistake on part of Pakistan leaders and most important the generals.

    If Bangladesh's themselves not wanted to get seperated.No force could had seperated them from us.

  10. #295
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    What if Nixon was successful in convincing/coercing the Chinese to open the southern theatre with India in 1971, atleast 15 days before East

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