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Thread: What if Nixon Succeeded

  1. #181
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Sir,you made me curious,so I'll at the details later.But at first glance it screams interior lines maneuver.Not the actual deployment of the PA,but what is possible.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  2. #182
    Military Professional Deltacamelately's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Major,

    As I stated, if Pakistan had better Generals. I can see one plan right off the bat that could give East Pakistan a tactical victory but not a strategic one.

    Operation MARS in which Model and Kluge ignored the penetrations and kept the strong points strong. This in turn had the effect of cutting off the LOCs to the penetrating units.

    But then, this required Generals on the level of Model and Kluge. I'm not one of them.
    Sir,

    There's a huge difference in the objectives and the resources available. General A.A.K.Niazi, was determined merely to delay the IA's advance. For, in this war, the real battle was against time. The longer it took the IA to secure their limited objectives, the greater the probability of the UN intervening to stop the war and effect a stalemate. Pakistan was confident that a stalemate was all that the IA could get. Towards this strategy, General Niazi, had fortified the towns and approaches to the EP heartland.

    The initial brief given by FM Maneckshaw, to the Eastern Command was very limited. The aim was to occupy only two areas of EP- Chittagong and Khulna - so that an interim Bangladeshi government could be established. The capture of the whole of East Pakistan was not conceived in the initial brief. A major problem was the geography and terrain of EP. Three major rivers - the Brahmaputra, the Ganges and the Meghna divided EP into four natural regions. Each of the rivers were major ones, all of them wider than any European river. Each sub-region was further divided into several pockets cut by smaller rivers and their tributaries. The idea that an attacking army could bridge these, fight the enemy and then take territory, all within a couple of weeks, was ludicrous to say the leat. The immense practical problem of moving thousands of troops and tonnes of equipment across rivers and marshes was accomplished largely due to the efforts of the Army Corps of Engineers, and with a lot of local help. The IAF chipped in by using helicopters to lift entire battalions across larger rivers that could not be quickly bridged by the Engineers. In most places, the swiftly moving contingents quickly overcame enemy resistance and moved forward. Any General in his right mind wouldn't even consider neglecting the strongpoints and concentrate on the ancilliary pincers.

    It was only at a later stage that the Eastern Command realized that in order to fully achieve the eastern objective, the campaign had to be menacingly quick. They realised that General Niazi was going to fortify the towns and defend them in strength. The IA therefore decided not attack any towns but bypass them using subsidiary tracks to get to the real objective, that was Dacca. There seems no way that the PA could tie-down the IA and force a general kill, so as to achieve any kind of tactical victory. Request you to kindly help, shape up a battle plan that could in general achieve the speculated objectives.
    Last edited by Deltacamelately; 27 Aug 13, at 08:47.
    And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

  3. #183
    Military Professional Deltacamelately's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Sir,you made me curious,so I'll at the details later.But at first glance it screams interior lines maneuver.Not the actual deployment of the PA,but what is possible.
    It is also interesting to note the places, wherein the IA was willing to offer battle and places wherein they simply skirted off.
    And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

  4. #184
    Military Professional Deltacamelately's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    We toppled governments in Africa and the Middle East, bombed the snot out of multiple Asian countries, tens of thousands of nukes, had until just a few months previous a robust bio and CW program, would betray Taiwan in short order..... Ya make no mistake America is a cynical and more capable of a "fuck everyone then, see ya'll at God's place" move than the Soviet's ever were.
    Call it the shortsightedness of the Indian political brass. But then, I already conceded that there's a cultural angle in this as well.

    Your Deadman's Party was not properly conceived back here.
    And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

  5. #185
    Officer of Engineers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    Request you to kindly help, shape up a battle plan that could in general achieve the speculated objectives.
    You're really determined to have fun with this. Let me look this over.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    Call it the shortsightedness of the Indian political brass. But then, I already conceded that there's a cultural angle in this as well.

    Your Deadman's Party was not properly conceived back here.

    Your nation should have studied Indian history, the other Indians....

    It was only at a later stage that the Eastern Command realized that in order to fully achieve the eastern objective, the campaign had to be menacingly quick. They realised that General Niazi was going to fortify the towns and defend them in strength. The IA therefore decided not attack any towns but bypass them using subsidiary tracks to get to the real objective, that was Dacca. There seems no way that the PA could tie-down the IA and force a general kill, so as to achieve any kind of tactical victory. Request you to kindly help, shape up a battle plan that could in general achieve the speculated objectives.
    Easy, take significant Indian territory in the West... say Armistar.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post



    Easy, take significant Indian territory in the West... say Armistar.
    Not possible. PA tried and failed three times.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blademaster View Post
    Not possible. PA tried and failed three times.

    Oh I know, but the basic concept, defend the East from the West makes perfectly good military sense.

  9. #189
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Easy, take significant Indian territory in the West... say Armistar.
    They tried and they failed badly.

    4th Corps of Pakistan carried out an offensive operation (106 Infantry Brigade, constituting about 2 infantry battalions from the Baloch and Pakistan's Punjab Regiment, plus a troop of armour) towards Ferozepur in Indian Punjab. They started off well, but were eventually stopped by the 15th battalion of India's Punjab Regiment whose timid commander was begging his superiors to allow him to withdraw. The battle was won solely by the writ of the Indian troops. The opposing Indian commanders were just as incompetent as the Pakistanis.

    Pakistan's 105 Independent Brigade (again from 4th Corps) carried out a spectacularly quick and aggressive offensive action against Fazilka, steamrolled over the forward Indian defence positions, and completely broke the morale of the Indian 67th Infantry Brigade. The incompetence of Indian commanders made the situation even worse, which finally resulted in Western Army Command sacking and replacing the Brigade Commander. Pakistan failed to take the initiative despite the breakthrough, and the Indian units were allowed to regroup. IAF's air superiority also made a big difference in dissuading the Pakistanis from advancing further.

    1st Corps of the PA and IA clashed in the Jammu/North Punjab (the battle compiled here: Battle of Basantar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Again, terrible leadership from the Corps commanders on both sides. Pakistan's 8th Division commander resorted to completely dumbfounded suicidal attacks, like that of the 35th battalion of the Frontier Force Regiment at Jarpal, where the entire battalion was wiped out by the IA. This was a battle between two Corps commanders, both with a defensive mindset, who simply refused to dedicate the needed resources and units for their attacks. It's understandable from an Indian POV, as their main objective was to hold the line in the West, while invading East Pakistan. It's completely bizarre when you look at it from the Pakistani side, who were completely banking on taking Indian territory in the West to protect the East.

    Than there is the battle of Longewala. The Pakistani 18th Division (206th Inf Brigade, 51st Inf Brigade, 38th Cav and 22nd Cav) failed to overrun a single company, numbering about 120 men, of the 23rd Battalion (Indian) Punjab Regiment, and were eventually picked out and routed by the IAF. The incompetence of the Indian commanders once again is on display here, as they did not take the initiative to chase and destroy the routed Pakistani units. Infact, the Indian commanders even went ahead and cancelled 12th Divisions planned attack against Rahim Yar Khan. Than the Indian commanders went on and fumbled the 11th Indian Divisions attack towards Umarkot.

    The poor decisions made on the Western front are nauseating. It didn't make much of a difference to India, as it's main focus was on the Eastern front; but the fact remains that neither side truly made the other side pay for their mistakes on the Western front in '71.
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Oh I know, but the basic concept, defend the East from the West makes perfectly good military sense.
    And the IA knows the strategy very well and came up with effective countermeasures.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    Request you to kindly help, shape up a battle plan that could in general achieve the speculated objectives.
    Major,

    I'm thinking Battle of Changsha (1942) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    A good, but not a great General, and an army nowhere close to the calibre of the British Indian Army manage to inflict a devastating defeat onto the IJA.

    Essentially, Dhaka is the bait. As the Indian Army advances, it meets and pushes aside Pakistani divisions though it may seem a total collapse as the road to Dhaka are blasted open one division at a time. Dhaka itself would be fortified to the hilt signalling a Pakistani intent to do or die there, something the InA would expect to see.

    As the InA engages in that do or die battle with every confidence of winning that battle, those Pakistani divisions that were pushed aside would start their true battle against the InA rear areas.

    The key to this is that the InA must be convinced that they have destroyed the blocking Pakistani divisions and that the main Pakistani effort is at Dhaka. As you can see Major, the vital point is the deception, not the actual combat power.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 29 Aug 13, at 05:12.

  12. #192
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blademaster View Post
    And the IA knows the strategy very well and came up with effective countermeasures.
    lol... I think he was being sarcastic.
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

  13. #193
    Military Professional Deltacamelately's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Your nation should have studied Indian history, the other Indians....
    Umm...valid though. Your nation is significantly different, culturally atleast.
    Easy, take significant Indian territory in the West... say Armistar.
    Very cute.
    And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

  14. #194
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Major,

    I'm thinking Battle of Changsha (1942) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    A good, but not a great General, and an army nowhere close to the calibre of the British Indian Army manage to inflict a devastating defeat onto the IJA.

    Essentially, Dhaka is the bait. As the Indian Army advances, it meets and pushes aside Pakistani divisions though it may seem a total collapse as the road to Dhaka are blasted open one division at a time. Dhaka itself would be fortified to the hilt signalling a Pakistani intent to do or die there, something the InA would expect to see.

    As the InA engages in that do or die battle with every confidence of winning that battle, those Pakistani divisions that were pushed aside would start their true battle against the InA rear areas.

    The key to this is that the InA must be convinced that they have destroyed the blocking Pakistani divisions and that the main Pakistani effort is at Dhaka. As you can see Major, the vital point is the deception, not the actual combat power.
    Col,

    IA had troops numbers outmatch PA, unlike the Japanese and what about InAF? They had clear skies.
    Last edited by Doktor; 29 Aug 13, at 06:22.
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  15. #195
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    More importantly, India had superior intelligence in EP, thanks to the locals who were greeting the Indian forces as liberators, as opposed to the IJA in Changsha. The PA was facing a hostile local militia and difficult terrain. I don't think the PA would have been able to surround three Indian Corps with only 3 Divisions.
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

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