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US to allow women into combat arms roles.

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  • #61
    What you are saying is essentially is there is no room for 4 toilets and wardrobe in a tank?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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    • #62
      There isn't even room for one toilet and a wardrobe in a tank
      Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

      Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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      • #63
        I know. What I never realized is why on earth you tankers have to poo in a helmet? Armored toilet for armored fellas? Fear that someone can kill your fecal residues?

        There are a nice little bedpans, but no, yours have to be from kevlar.
        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
          No female is conscripted into the Caracal. It is a choice.
          But your other slots are filled by conscripts, freeing available women who do want to join. An all volunteer force do not have such luxuries.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
            Our "war week" was a full training week, from Sunday-Friday morning. Their "war week" was 3 days and 2 nights. And their dropout rate was higher than ours, something near 50% IIRC. Our graduating hike was somewhere in the range of 30Km + 5Km with an open stretcher. Theirs wasn't even 10Km.
            If you're bitching on me, you've got the wrong gal. I would apply this maxim to all combat slots.

            Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
            I personally think that infantry standards should be uniform regardless of gender.
            And no, I don't subscribe to lowering standards or requirements for anyone. Either handle it, or find a different MOS.
            sigpic

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              But your other slots are filled by conscripts, freeing available women who do want to join. An all volunteer force do not have such luxuries.
              Former US Secretary of Defense Panetta signed the order allowing females into combat roles. At his confirmation hearing on Jan. 31, Chuck Hagel, President Obama’s nominee for defense secretary stated unequivocally, "I will work with the service chiefs as we officially open combat positions to women, a decision I strongly support.”

              Luxury or not, the decision has been made.
              sigpic

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                I know. What I never realized is why on earth you tankers have to poo in a helmet? Armored toilet for armored fellas? Fear that someone can kill your fecal residues?

                There are a nice little bedpans, but no, yours have to be from kevlar.
                Purely a matter of convenience. You don't have to if you don't want to, but a tank doesn't have much squatting room. A helmet with a plastic bag is the perfect porta-potty, and the bag can be tied up and tossed out of several convenient holes at the first convenient opportunity.
                Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
                  If you're bitching on me, you've got the wrong gal. I would apply this maxim to all combat slots.
                  Where did you get the impression I was bitching on you? I was pointing out why in my opinion women wouldn't be able to hack it in the armored corps, using the best equivalent I had, the girls that actually did tank instructor's course, the closest thing to Armor basic training that you'll find
                  Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                  Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I admit that I have some difficulty understanding the Israeli concept of sending initial-entry soldiers to a school to become instant instructors without ever actually gaining any practical field experience. How can someone be a truly effective tank instructor without having served as a tanker? This is, of course, Israel's business and I suppose that it works for them, but it is a system that makes very little sense to me. I greatly prefer having non-commissioned officers who have been in the field for 3-5 years as a soldier before advancing to be a junior NCO, and additional time in a field leadership role before becoming a school instructor. But again, the entire Israeli system is very different from that of the United States and most other Western countries.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
                      Luxury or not, the decision has been made.
                      I was commenting on an American Caracal style battalion. It's a no go from the start. The slots and women numbers ain't there.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by sourkraut115 View Post
                        But again, the entire Israeli system is very different from that of the United States and most other Western countries.
                        The Israeli system is very different but as is obvious, it works out well.

                        Basically, the mechanics of everything military - from martial arts classes to operating howitzers and armor - is taught by female instructors. Once that foundational knowledge is imbued, experienced officers teach conscripts the tactics portion of training. By the final year of your hitch, you are a superbly trained soldier in your specific branch.
                        sigpic

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          I was commenting on an American Caracal style battalion. It's a no go from the start. The slots and women numbers ain't there.
                          You know your military far better than I so your assertion is probably correct. It will be interesting to see what mechanisms are employed by the various branches to implement the SecDef directive.
                          sigpic

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                          • #73
                            "...But again, the entire Israeli system is very different from that of the United States and most other Western countries."

                            Not entirely. My first active duty assignment was as an instructor at the Field Artillery Officer Basic, Advance and Cannon Battery Courses. No troop time or field experience whatsoever. Literally from the student desk to the platform as a newly-commissioned 2LT with four months of school. I was the second in my instructor branch of, ultimately, five O-1s holding down O-3 slots.

                            Needs of the service.

                            I don't anticipate a rush of female ranger candidates or cannoneers. They would bring a whole new meaning to gun-bunnie however.
                            "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                            "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
                              You know your military far better than I so your assertion is probably correct. It will be interesting to see what mechanisms are employed by the various branches to implement the SecDef directive.
                              Probably the same as the rest of ABCA. We set a paper quota to satisfy the feminist and then proceed to ignore it because

                              1) There is no rule that says a slot must goto a woman
                              2) There is no rule that an unqualified candidate must fill an empty slot.

                              I don't know anyone who suffered career damage for not filling the quota.

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                              • #75
                                As long as women can meet the same physical requirements as men then I have no issue, but unless the physical requirements are lowered for women, very few women will be able to meet the physical requirements as they currently are.


                                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                                Sec Def Leon Pannetta has decided in his infinite wisdom that PC trumps evolution and the need to actually win in combat (from firefight to the war in whole) and has commanded the US military to allow women into ground combat roles. This is not going to end well.

                                A normal Army infantryman carries 63lbs worth of gear. SAW gunners, grenadiers, AT gunners, mortarmen etc can carry over 100lbs. That is without accounting for specialized environmental equipment. Load 99% of the women in American down at those levels and they will be profile cases in short order. Its not sexists, its a matter of bone density and muscle mass. Men with much denser bones and gobs more muscle mass still get injured carrying those loads.

                                Similar problems exist for most of the combat arms. Women might excell at being MP's, but what about engineers who carry even more kit than the infantry. Can a woman feed a gun tube all day? Maybe, if she can pass a mans PT test and prove her upper body strength. However i am willing to bet the PT standards wont merge.

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