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  • #61
    I am 12.
    WAB has an age limit - you lied on your resume
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
      Because on each time, when India was presented with a dastardly act or deed by Pakistan for the last 8 years, the aboved name leaders promised swift action and retribution but to date we have heard nothing. They do nothing to inspire confidence in the security of India. Look at Putin or past presidents of US and even Obama. Such acts would have not gone unanswered. Even PM of Britain or France would not tolerate this kind of shit.

      So yes I am perfectly well within my rights to say what I said before.
      Why does reprisal have to be conventional? Blademaster is arguing to give a country notorious for corruption authoritarian rule, does one not imagine then that abuse of power will be even worse?

      If the Chechens/Taliban/Tibetans were capable of hitting every major Russian/American/Chinese population center with nukes I think calls for war/invasion would be a whole lot more measured if not discarded to the realm of lunacy.

      Can the Indians not hold out one hand in peace and the other drip-feeding an insurgency? Maybe its not a question of can and simply just information that one does not know about. How involved is the Indian state or intelligence apparatus with the current devolution of Pakistan into civil war?

      Whilst the actions and the manner in which these men have been treated is deplorable, what exactly do you wish the civilian administration to do? Mobilize into a state of total war and risk nuclear conflict over 2 men? I don't think anyone wants to turn those two jawans into modern day Franz-Ferdinands. For all anyone knows India could play an increasing hand with the deteriorating situation in Pakistan - though that seems a short sighted course of action.

      It seems like the wisest course of action (in terms of national security) on Indias part would be to try and ensure Pakistan as a nation undergoes economic growth and reform on one hand (and play a large role in this to the extent where the threat of economic estrangement would yield more results than military action)and on the other hand remain ultra-vigilant against incidents like this and ISI meddling in Indian internal affairs/sponsorship of terrorist activity. Its a bitter pill to swallow, but when the alternatives are potential escalation to a nuclear stage or a collapsed Pakistani state with nuclear weapons in the hands of insane individuals.
      Last edited by Bridgeburner_; 13 Jan 13,, 21:53.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by troung View Post
        They are not going to be marching on Islamabad nor destroying entire divisions; i.e. something which would at least break Pakistani morale. Some ground would change on both sides, they would break somewhat even in the dead and both sides would wildly inflate the others losses in tanks and air planes - and the hyper patriots would spend the next sixty years arguing over the internet. I do wish the rest of the world would not try and separate them though.

        America was at least in a position to punitively flatten the Taliban and smash things up - just hung around too long and tried to turn the place into Switzerland and is now in the current debacle. India is not in a position to flatten the PA; not even in a position to give them such a violent beating as to make them scared for a generation. A world of difference. I'm sure the brave generals and political "cowards" know that as well.
        Their moral is sustained by whatever economy they have. Military response will hit their economy, India will be able to recover the same faster. Also military response can vary from least military objective of hitting training camps and border posts to marching towards Islamabad, its not a big deal we have done this before in Dhaka, we do not need help an ally for logistics as well. The issue here is to send the message which is visible and upfront.

        America thought they were in a position, but after spending more than 100 billion dollars and 10 years Taliban can revive without warning. In India's case we have no confusion who is our enemy or not and who is supporting them or not. It far more easier and therapeutic for us.

        Rest of your post about hyper nationals, 60 years, loss of tanks, air planes etc. doesn't make any sense to me.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by kuku View Post

          Can we do this?
          Wars between Iran and Iraq.

          How much would that cost us, many dead kids, brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers, trillions of dollars spent (which we do not have) over the next decade, and a economy in tatters? Millions of refugues from the border areas inside India. A humanitarian disaster in India and Pakistan.
          How can you have so many post in a defence forum deserve an interview of yours :).

          We are bogged down in J&K and our economy is already taking a toll because of our security needs. One time expense will make sure no more expenses in future. It took Pakistan 28 years after 1971 to mount an attack on us, in between you captured Saichen as a over run.

          Some people suggested a sustained low intensity campaign against Pakistan, creating an entire military structure dedicated towards hitting out across the border, a intelligence structure dedicated towards supplying funding, arms and ammunition to anti national elements within pakistan.
          We were doing it before that is hitting terrorist training camps near borders but then some dick head signed a ceasefire agreement. Supporting insurgency and supplying ammunition to anti Pakistan faction is big big asking, one of the clown PM before withdrew all the RAW network and present PM has a Pakistan project to leave a personal legacy at any cost.

          Are we capable of doing that?
          Your army leadership has said it so many times, I don't think they are talking above their pay scales.

          Gotta go I will quote rest of your points when free.

          Thanks

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by texasjohn View Post
            Vas ist PNVDs??

            Personal night vision devices??
            Passive Night Vision Devices - they work by amplifying ambient light.

            Cheers!...on the rocks!!

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Doktor View Post
              I heard from another Indian friend, skirmishes still go on, and PA shells like several posts.

              Any sources?
              No that is incorrect. PA and IA troops do not skirmish routinely and neither is arty used.
              However, incidents of firing by PA units to assist jihadis to infiltrate atre common.

              Shelling by mortars is rare and retaliated in kind.

              Cheers!...on the rocks!!

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by troung View Post
                Expensively clearing a few peaks at high cost in men and equipment and hoping Pakistan doesn't escalate further or dropping a few billion dollars to fight for a couple of weeks all across the border, end up in a stalemate with a few thousand dead on each side (provided no nukes get thrown) - over the deaths of two soldiers on each side doesn't fill the Indian political elite with fire in their bellies.
                Troung,
                No such actions will be taken.
                On the LOC we retaliate in a very effective manner, away from the media glare.
                I took retaliatory action in my sector too....so believe me that they will get hit. But not in the manner that people would think. There will be no IDF style invasion of Lebanon type attacks.

                In 2001, after a terror hit on the family accomodation of soldiers in Kalu Chack near Jammu. The army retaliated by destroying the Bde HQ of the opposite sector.
                In the late 90's when terrorists were targetting hindu marriage parties in Udhampur district, the IA SF retaliated across in very successful raid - 40 enemy personel were killed for no loss to the raiding team.

                The message will be sent to them in good time. But we cannot start a war and screw up the economy.

                Cheers!...on the rocks!!

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by ambidex View Post
                  Wars between Iran and Iraq.
                  You could not have given a worse example to support your argument. You want us to fight an Iran-Iraq style war? An endless meat grinder with no strategic gains?

                  Originally posted by ambidex View Post
                  We are bogged down in J&K and our economy is already taking a toll because of our security needs. One time expense will make sure no more expenses in future. It took Pakistan 28 years after 1971 to mount an attack on us, in between you captured Saichen as a over run.
                  Incorrect - security needs do not bog down our economy, the defence budget is still around 2 - 2.5% of the GDP. Pakistan is not and cannot be a threat to our economy.

                  Originally posted by ambidex View Post
                  We were doing it before that is hitting terrorist training camps near borders but then some dick head signed a ceasefire agreement.
                  Do you have a source for this? AFAIK, we have never been able to hit terrorist camps in PoK, much less those in Pakistani Punjab or tribal areas. Supporting misc insurgencies in Pakistan is a different matter.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by ambidex View Post
                    Wars between Iran and Iraq.

                    How can you have so many post in a defence forum deserve an interview of yours :).

                    We are bogged down in J&K and our economy is already taking a toll because of our security needs. One time expense will make sure no more expenses in future. It took Pakistan 28 years after 1971 to mount an attack on us, in between you captured Saichen as a over run.

                    We were doing it before that is hitting terrorist training camps near borders but then some dick head signed a ceasefire agreement. Supporting insurgency and supplying ammunition to anti Pakistan faction is big big asking, one of the clown PM before withdrew all the RAW network and present PM has a Pakistan project to leave a personal legacy at any cost.

                    Your army leadership has said it so many times, I don't think they are talking above their pay scales.

                    Gotta go I will quote rest of your points when free.

                    Thanks
                    Okay, i think Iran and Iraq both had their military forces intact after a long war, and more than a couple of very bad war propoganda movies.

                    There are people with more posts and even blogs, this is the age of the social network, whenever i have free time it is nice to read this forum.

                    Well i do not know if we did that, however people are suggesting that we do this as a tit for tat (if i understand them):
                    create a dedicated structure with not other goal, men form the military and intelligence agencies, and money from the defence budget (and other sources).
                    Dedicated completly towards helping any insurgencies in Pakistan and carrying out attacks against the terrorist structure raised for harming India, where-ever that may be (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, UK, Canada etc. etc.), seemed like a possible thing to do for India to me (if not desirable thing).

                    Was it not BJP that signed the ceasefire? and this happened after 2001 i think.

                    Well, the military is a tool, the politicians have to decide on policy and goals, they do have the space to move around and respond along the borders, however something as big as a war or even a large scale action will come from the political leaders.

                    Take your time, cheers
                    Last edited by kuku; 14 Jan 13,, 08:04.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by cataphract View Post
                      You could not have given a worse example to support your argument. You want us to fight an Iran-Iraq style war? An endless meat grinder with no strategic gains?
                      My example is the best example for people who are pessimist and already defeated, the experts in defeatology. If you are not ready even to throw bricks and stones at them in the end, they will keep killing you in your own cities. Iran-Iraq how messier and laborious it was it showed their resolve.

                      Incorrect - security needs do not bog down our economy, the defence budget is still around 2 - 2.5% of the GDP. Pakistan is not and cannot be a threat to our economy.
                      I would go with many other poster who will agree with me that we are stuck in our region than expanding beyond IOR and Subcontinent.

                      Defence budget of 3% of our GDP has failed us, it means we need more, then it means we are bogged down both militarily and economically. Not to mention stress and strain our forces are absorbing for last 10-20 years.

                      Also I am talking about how easily they are hitting your metropolitan cities i.e. our centres of economy.

                      Do you have a source for this? AFAIK, we have never been able to hit terrorist camps in PoK, much less those in Pakistani Punjab or tribal areas. Supporting misc insurgencies in Pakistan is a different matter.
                      India may have to look at options: IAF chief Browne warns Pakistan

                      A Blunt-Speaking General Says India Is Ready for War - NYTimes.com

                      "If we go to war, jolly good!" Gen. S. Padmanabhan exclaimed.
                      India gives Musharraf nuclear war warning - Telegraph

                      INDIA raised the pressure on Pakistan yesterday when its army chief said he was ready to fight a nuclear war if necessary.
                      Army Chief warns Pakistan, says will choose the time and place to retaliate - India - IBNLive
                      New Delhi: Indian Army Chief General Bikram Singh hit out strongly at Pakistan over the killing of two Indian soldiers and continuous ceasefire violation. He warned Pakistan that the Indian Army will retaliate to Pakistan's attack. "I have given very categorical directions to the Northern Command. When we are provoked we shall respond immediately. I expect my commanders to be aggressive in the face of firing. We will retaliate to Pakistan's attack at a place and time of our choosing," General Bikram Singh said.
                      Last edited by ambidex; 14 Jan 13,, 09:15.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by kuku View Post
                        Okay, i think Iran and Iraq both had their military forces intact after a long war, and more than a couple of very bad war propoganda movies.
                        Our result may not be like Iran and Iraq.

                        There are people with more posts and even blogs, this is the age of the social network, whenever i have free time it is nice to read this forum.
                        Nothing personal was there (smiley), you have good number of posts, all was not agreeing with your emotional concerns of aftermaths of war. Please tell me how many soldiers and civilians we have lost in J&K till today. Now another wave of insurgency has started, just within last two weeks two democratically elected village Chiefs in J&K (Sarpanch) has been killed, few were killed couple of moons back.

                        Well i do not know if we did that, however people are suggesting that we do this as a tit for tat (if i understand them):
                        create a dedicated structure with not other goal, men form the military and intelligence agencies, and money from the defence budget (and other sources).
                        Dedicated completly towards helping any insurgencies in Pakistan and carrying out attacks against the terrorist structure raised for harming India, where-ever that may be (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, UK, Canada etc. etc.), seemed like a possible thing to do for India to me (if not desirable thing).
                        Yes PM I.K Gujral did it.

                        Tit for tat should be done militarily not using terrorism that is what I would like to witness.

                        Was it not BJP that signed the ceasefire? and this happened after 2001 i think.
                        Yes It was BJP, they are more Idiots than congress. They missed opportunity of opening another front during Kargil war at IB and avoided crossing LOC.

                        Well, the military is a tool, the politicians have to decide on policy and goals, they do have the space to move around and respond along the borders, however something as big as a war or even a large scale action will come from the political leaders.
                        Military should be the only tool and we need better political leadership abiding by clear national policy/doctrine on security (which i think we do not have) on asymmetrical war, infiltration and terrorist attacks, making it more difficult for political leadership to ignore such continuous battering we are facing.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          General Singh on the ongoing LOC Issue

                          Link
                          _________

                          IMO, it's a pretty candid press release by the general, before today's flag meeting with the PA. FYI.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                            Because on each time, when India was presented with a dastardly act or deed by Pakistan for the last 8 years, the aboved name leaders promised swift action and retribution but to date we have heard nothing. They do nothing to inspire confidence in the security of India. Look at Putin or past presidents of US and even Obama. Such acts would have not gone unanswered. Even PM of Britain or France would not tolerate this kind of shit.

                            So yes I am perfectly well within my rights to say what I said before.
                            And I hope you would not like to invite an administration where you might cease to enjoy the right to say.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by ambidex View Post
                              Our result may not be like Iran and Iraq.

                              Nothing personal was there (smiley), you have good number of posts, all was not agreeing with your emotional concerns of aftermaths of war. Please tell me how many soldiers and civilians we have lost in J&K till today. Now another wave of insurgency has started, just within last two weeks two democratically elected village Chiefs in J&K (Sarpanch) has been killed, few were killed couple of moons back.

                              Yes PM I.K Gujral did it.

                              Tit for tat should be done militarily not using terrorism that is what I would like to witness.

                              Yes It was BJP, they are more Idiots than congress. They missed opportunity of opening another front during Kargil war at IB and avoided crossing LOC.

                              Military should be the only tool and we need better political leadership abiding by clear national policy/doctrine on security (which i think we do not have) on asymmetrical war, infiltration and terrorist attacks, making it more difficult for political leadership to ignore such continuous battering we are facing.
                              In terms of conventional militarily might rougly in the same position as pre-71 war, add the nukes (sure we have purchased new gear, so have they), IAF has a more 4th generation planes now, and the IN is very strong. So yes if its a conventional war the results will be different, then again dealing with bat shit crazy people is a delicate game, and the said people have nuclear weapons, that we let them complie from different sources.

                              not a problem, i am not offended if someone tells me how much time i spend on this forum, i enjoy reading the people here, wish i could do more.

                              In Kashmir, i think 10K soldeirs and 50K civilians plus the many displaced from the valley.
                              Listen you do not have to tell me, my father was posted in different locations of J&K from 87-93, and i was in school (KV airforce base srinagar), i am in touch with school friends, the terrorists have made the life of people hell (there was a girl who was shot in her leg for wearing jeans), i completly understand the horror these islamic idiots have unleashed.

                              However one thing is certain, at this point an all out war to destroy the PA will result in a nuclear war, because Pakistan is essentially whatever the Pakistani military allows it to be.

                              For the life of me, i would rather see peace, at whatever cost, but the question is where does it stop! these vile religious extremists will not leave alone my home in Delhi, nor my village in niti ghati (the most beaurtiful place in the world). There intent is absolute dominance over the world, and we must fight them at every corner.

                              So yes i agree with you no price is too small to defeat these bastards, they have been knocking at our doors for many years now, and we must finish what the ones before us could not, and get rid of this stupid stupid blot on human history.

                              However this has to be a political decision, one that is supported by a majority party, with full understanding of every India, wars indeed should not be left to generals.

                              And we need to bring a political organisation into power to make this happen.
                              It is a stupid, a lame and a weak excuse to blame a/the political party/parties, the power to campaign for a party and to vote for them is with us, protected by the constitution and the courts and unless we start to protect this right with our efforts and blood, we have nothing, absolutly nothing to talk about.

                              All that and a decade and old monk is still the best rum for winters... ah!!!
                              Last edited by kuku; 14 Jan 13,, 17:48.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Wars between Iran and Iraq.
                                An eight year stalemate...

                                Rest of your post about hyper nationals, 60 years, loss of tanks, air planes etc. doesn't make any sense to me.
                                Think about it.

                                America thought they were in a position, but after spending more than 100 billion dollars and 10 years Taliban can revive without warning. In India's case we have no confusion who is our enemy or not and who is supporting them or not. It far more easier and therapeutic for us.
                                America was in a better position to smash the Taliban regime and walk away unscathed then India is to break the PA's back. It's not weak kneed politicians stopping the IA from marching into Islamabad.

                                Whether or not India does some commando raid and offs a few PA men or spikes a gun, blasts some border posts or has a Gurkha come back with the head of a Baloch and claim it was cut off in battle and not afterwards it seems a lot of people here will be disappointed that India didn't declare war over this.
                                To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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