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  • #31
    Originally posted by Tronic View Post
    Let the Kashmiris list their own benefits and their own losses. Actually listening to what their opinion is rather than preconceiving it and shutting it out would be a good start....
    List one valid opinion by them, that is not linked to separatism?
    You're vindicating the article; the Kashmiris are automatically assumed to be anti-nationals and must constantly prove their loyalty to the country.
    (a) If the Kashmiri supports separatism - then he/she is anti-national for me.
    (b) If the Kashmiri supports foreign terrorists and holds bandhs (strikes) in the cities when these terrorists are gunned down by security forces - then he/she is anti-national for me.
    (c) When we see the Kashmiri's leaders and institutions suppressing the Hindu pilgrimage programmes - then yes he/she becomes communal and anti-national for me.
    If you want their land, at the least, give them their share of dignity.
    They had more dignity and enjoyed more prosperity than the rest of India,....but they chose otherwise.
    FYI, the national poverty index in 1989 - Kashmir has 4% people below the poverty line, while the average was 26% for the rest of India.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Tronic View Post
      Everyone else here only seems to have vindicated the article. The article isn't about AFSPA or even the army. It is about the attitudes of the hinterland Indians against people living in conflict zones such as Kashmir. We have people scrambling to defend the policies of the government, without anyone addressing those alienating attitudes, which can even be seen in the posts here.
      Tell me how to do it. We don't get any balanced coverage from the area at all.

      All we get are HR reports about violations past or present in the area. We lack the perspective to address those points in a balanced & realistic manner. We cannot adequately respond to the PR game at play here. In the extreme case you end up with partisan replies and the impression is unwittingly created that the rest of us do not care. My approach is to point to the law in place. Its not nice but it's the only objective point there is.

      That law is in place for a reason. Remove it and we turn the clock back to the 90s. Is that a better outcome than the present. Even more people will die as a consequence. Army has a thankless job here, keep the peace and suffer HR violations or lose the peace and be accused of incompetence and even more HR violations. Army is damned whatever they do. Army is just a tool in the backdrop of the larger gepolitical game at play here. Lets be clear that so long as AFSPA is in place that there is no peace and a state of war is still on. It might not be kinetic but it still exists.

      For the Paks, Kashmir is fair game as they see it and they are going to keep pushing for it. Its ironic the need for Kashmir for both India & the Pakistan. The Paks need Kashmir to distract and focus away from unrest in other areas of their country and as a consequence maintain their military state.. We need Kashmir because if it breaks away then we believe that the whole country will collapse. Same goes for any other state with break away intentions. Your average kashmiri is caught in the cross fire.

      Originally posted by Tronic View Post
      Let the Kashmiris list their own benefits and their own losses. Actually listening to what their opinion is rather than preconceiving it and shutting it out would be a good start. You're vindicating the article; the Kashmiris are automatically assumed to be anti-nationals and must constantly prove their loyalty to the country. If you want their land, at the least, give them their share of dignity.
      Didn't they have this recently with the interlocutors. I'm not sure if their report has been released as yet. But i understand their report has already been submitted to the govt. Now, once that report comes out maybe the situation will become more clear. When will the report come out ? as usual there will be domestic political calculations to be considered.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        Tell me how to do it. We don't get any balanced coverage from the area at all.

        All we get are HR reports about violations past or present in the area. We lack the perspective to address those points in a balanced & realistic manner. We cannot adequately respond to the PR game at play here. In the extreme case you end up with partisan replies and the impression is unwittingly created that the rest of us do not care. My approach is to point to the law in place. Its not nice but it's the only objective point there is.

        That law is in place for a reason. Remove it and we turn the clock back to the 90s. Is that a better outcome than the present. Even more people will die as a consequence. Army has a thankless job here, keep the peace and suffer HR violations or lose the peace and be accused of incompetence and even more HR violations. Army is damned whatever they do. Army is just a tool in the backdrop of the larger gepolitical game at play here. Lets be clear that so long as AFSPA is in place that there is no peace and a state of war is still on. It might not be kinetic but it still exists.
        You are scared that everything will go back to the 90s, so a repressive state is your answer. The North Eastern states have had brutal laws in place for more than 40 years now! To say that the only way for India to remain intact is through brutal and repressive laws, it reinforces an idea that India is, in fact, a non-viable state!

        The only way for India to grow as one society is through recognizing that injustice actually tears our country apart, not meld it together. It is a sense of justice that binds people together, it is justice which makes us one society, and any threat to that sense of justice undermines the entire system. Sooner or later, the country will fall apart if it continues on this path. There is nothing to show that the North Easterners feel any more Indian than they did 40 years ago. Infact, I wouldn't be surprised if the opposite is true today. It can easily be seen through the rise to power of regional political parties, who rally people around the cause for justice.


        For the Paks, Kashmir is fair game as they see it and they are going to keep pushing for it. Its ironic the need for Kashmir for both India & the Pakistan. The Paks need Kashmir to distract and focus away from unrest in other areas of their country and as a consequence maintain their military state.. We need Kashmir because if it breaks away then we believe that the whole country will collapse. Same goes for any other state with break away intentions. Your average kashmiri is caught in the cross fire.
        The greater factor for wanting Kashmir is water, more than anything else. Kashmir feeds major water sources of India and is the lifeline for Pakistan. The ideological angle is also there, playing second fiddle to the water, and India is doing a terrible job at making it's ideological argument.


        Didn't they have this recently with the interlocutors. I'm not sure if their report has been released as yet. But i understand their report has already been submitted to the govt. Now, once that report comes out maybe the situation will become more clear. When will the report come out ? as usual there will be domestic political calculations to be considered.
        Interlocutors were a very recent step. Should have happened long ago. That said, it's still a step in the right direction, even if it's a very small one.
        Last edited by Tronic; 29 Nov 12,, 18:43.
        Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
        -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
          Its you who is rigging the discussion here. Its absolutely pointless to flash back to the partition. People were given a choice to chose their loyalities....
          Kashmiris were given a choice? What bullocks! Your argument ends here.

          Though, I have to admit, the best part of your argument was this beauty:
          Because the constitution places the onus of India's territorial integrity on her armed forces and as I have previously quoated, "even if that warrants disproportionate force". Accept this and grow up. Once the Chechens chose the guns, there was nothing stopping the Russsians to crush, which were otherwise her own citizen.
          Do I need to point out the obvious? I think it speaks for itself.
          Last edited by Tronic; 29 Nov 12,, 19:16.
          Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
          -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

          Comment


          • #35
            We are being told that we do not listen to the opinions of Kashmiris. I took the advice to heart. Does listening to this count?

            Kashmiris hold funeral prayers for Kasab

            Hundreds of people today offered funeral-in-absentia or ‘gaibana nimaz-e-jinaza’ for Mumbai terror attack convict Ajmal Kasab who was hanged in Pune’s Yerwada Jail on Wednesday.

            Hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Geelani had appealed to people to hold his funeral prayers. Kasab’s funeral was offered today afternoon at the city’s Barzulla area. The people also offered funeral-in-absentia for Palestinians killed in Israeli air strikes on Gaza.

            “Funeral prayers should be held for (Palestinian) martyrs and Kasab should also be remembered. Nimaz-e-Jinaza (funeral prayers) should also be offered to him,”

            In May 2011, Geelani had led hundreds of people in the city’s Batamaloo neighbourhood to offer funeral prayers for Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, days after he was killed in a US raid in Pakistan.
            Not surprisingly, India's liberal mainstream media blacked this out.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
              We are being told that we do not listen to the opinions of Kashmiris. I took the advice to heart. Does listening to this count?

              Kashmiris hold funeral prayers for Kasab


              Not surprisingly, India's liberal mainstream media blacked this out.
              lol... Quoting the extremist elements within the extremists, the Jamaat-e-Islami gathering a few hundred Kashmiris, as the representatives of the entire Kashmir Valley. Yeah, you really took the advice to heart. What you're doing is akin to quoting Thackeray preaching Hindus to form suicide squads and putting it on a platter as the opinions of the entire Hindu community. Atleast the SS can still lay claim to some section of support, as they manage to win the municipal elections; the Hurriyat cannot even do that!
              Last edited by Tronic; 30 Nov 12,, 02:20.
              Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
              -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                You are scared that everything will go back to the 90s, so a repressive state is your answer. The North Eastern states have had brutal laws in place for more than 40 years now! To say that the only way for India to remain intact is through brutal and repressive laws, it reinforces an idea that India is, in fact, a non-viable state!

                The only way for India to grow as one society is through recognizing that injustice actually tears our country apart, not meld it together. It is a sense of justice that binds people together, it is justice which makes us one society, and any threat to that sense of justice undermines the entire system. Sooner or later, the country will fall apart if it continues on this path. There is nothing to show that the North Easterners feel any more Indian than they did 40 years ago.
                Of course we are a non viable state!
                Outside of the educated middle class our identity is constructed around caste, religion and ethnicity complete with different languages and cultures.
                We have hundreds of separatist movements and the fastest growing part of our political spectrum are the various regional parties.
                We have only been a united nation for 65 years.
                We have to do everything we can to patch together this nation and keep it going.

                Being nice to the Kashmiris and NE peoples will not take away their desire for secession.
                Look at Spain and Catalonia, UK and Scotland, Canada and Quebec. Separatism still exists no matter how wealthy the region becomes even in spite of a vast amount of power devolution.

                Put simply, your kumbayah lets all hold hands and be pals concept is pie in the sky liberal nonsense.
                I am very sympathetic to the plight of civilians stuck in the mess, but if if Kashmir must suffer so that the rest of india suffers less, then so be it.
                Under no circumstances can this nation afford to lose Kashmir, it would be a body blow to our continued survival as a nation state.

                Its a simple choice, the Kashmiri people have to stand up and prove that they are loyal to the Indian Union, that they will not secede.
                After this AFSPA and other repressive laws will not be needed.
                Last edited by bolo121; 30 Nov 12,, 04:27.
                For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                  Of course we are a non viable state!
                  Outside of the educated middle class our identity is constructed around caste, religion and ethnicity complete with different languages and cultures.
                  We have hundreds of separatist movements and the fastest growing part of our political spectrum are the various regional parties.
                  We have only been a united nation for 65 years.
                  We have to do everything we can to patch together this nation and keep it going.

                  Being nice to the Kashmiris and NE peoples will not take away their desire for secession.
                  Look at Spain and Catalonia, UK and Scotland, Canada and Quebec. Separatism still exists no matter how wealthy the region becomes even in spite of a vast amount of power devolution.

                  Put simply, your kumbayah lets all hold hands and be pals concept is pie in the sky liberal nonsense.
                  I am very sympathetic to the plight of civilians stuck in the mess, but if if Kashmir must suffer so that the rest of india suffers less, then so be it.
                  Under no circumstances can this nation afford to lose Kashmir, it would be a body blow to our continued survival as a nation state.

                  Its a simple choice, the Kashmiri people have to stand up and prove that they are loyal to the Indian Union, that they will not secede.
                  After this AFSPA and other repressive laws will not be needed.
                  On one hand, someone gives me an example of Russia-Chechnya as justification for armed repression of a population, while on the other, you give examples of Spain-Catalonia, UK-Scotland and Canada-Quebec as if they are a dreadful, failed scenario. Don't think I can possibly argue in the face of such logic. Adios!
                  Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                  -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                    On one hand, someone gives me an example of Russia-Chechnya as justification for armed repression of a population, while on the other, you give examples of Spain-Catalonia, UK-Scotland and Canada-Quebec as if they are a dreadful, failed scenario. Don't think I can possibly argue in the face of such logic. Adios!
                    You have been saying that removal of the AFSPA and military presence will prove to Kashmiris that we believe in Justice for them.
                    This is supposed to suddenly endear them to us, we will all magically get along, no new insurgency will arise and everyone will dance around trees with pink unicorns singing bollywood songs.
                    We both know that the islamists will take such actions as admitting weakness and weariness. We would have a much worse insurgency on our hands.

                    What I am saying is that no matter how nice you treat a population or how peaceful and wealthy they get they will still desire independence, that is the context in which i mentioned the rich nations above.

                    They can afford in the end to give up and say go your own way.
                    We cannot, not now not ever.
                    For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                      You have been saying that removal of the AFSPA and military presence will prove to Kashmiris that we believe in Justice for them.
                      Have I been saying that? I guess those are the shallow conclusions you reach when you take my thoughts, expressed in lengthy paragraphs, and summarize them all in one line.

                      Anyhow, the maturity level is obviously not enough to introspect on the problem it seems.

                      This is supposed to suddenly endear them to us, we will all magically get along, no new insurgency will arise and everyone will dance around trees with pink unicorns singing bollywood songs.
                      We both know that the islamists will take such actions as admitting weakness and weariness. We would have a much worse insurgency on our hands.
                      You might as well put the Bollywood songs into it, since it definitely sits well with your line of argument and logic.

                      What I am saying is that no matter how nice you treat a population or how peaceful and wealthy they get they will still desire independence, that is the context in which i mentioned the rich nations above.

                      They can afford in the end to give up and say go your own way.
                      We cannot, not now not ever.
                      Those countries you mentioned have been doing a far better job with their secessionist movements than the Russians in Chechnya who have been fighting in that tiny republic since the 18th century.

                      Anyhow, I can clearly see that you have nothing to offer and no solutions to discuss. You come here with nothing but a fear topped with a bucket full of arrogance.
                      Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                      -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                        lol... Quoting the extremist elements within the extremists, the Jamaat-e-Islami gathering a few hundred Kashmiris, as the representatives of the entire Kashmir Valley. Yeah, you really took the advice to heart.
                        (a) That is a very lame excuse. The fact that Kashmiris went to pray for a dead terrorist, whos' acts of murder were widely covered in the media, shows their mindset.
                        (b) These processions/ protests are common in villages whenever terrorists are gunned down.

                        For me they have choosen their side -they are on the side of the terrorists.
                        Atleast the SS can still lay claim to some section of support, as they manage to win the municipal elections; the Hurriyat cannot even do that!
                        Their aims differ, SS wants political power, while the Hurriyat is the overt sessionist movement wing of Pakistan.
                        Last edited by lemontree; 30 Nov 12,, 11:57.

                        Cheers!...on the rocks!!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                          Have I been saying that? I guess those are the shallow conclusions you reach when you take my thoughts, expressed in lengthy paragraphs, and summarize them all in one line.

                          Anyhow, the maturity level is obviously not enough to introspect on the problem it seems.
                          I summarised the salient points from your several pages of blather. You state the following:
                          Indian government is repressive towards the people.
                          This in not in keeping with indian democracy.
                          Kasmiris have therefore been let down by the government and should be allowed to choose their own path.

                          All I have mentioned is that this is a very idealistic and silly idea, India cannot risk it.

                          You might as well put the Bollywood songs into it, since it definitely sits well with your line of argument and logic.
                          My logic is fine. You dont like it and so naturally you have stooped to attacking the person instead of the message.

                          Those countries you mentioned have been doing a far better job with their secessionist movements than the Russians in Chechnya who have been fighting in that tiny republic since the 18th century.
                          Anyhow, I can clearly see that you have nothing to offer and no solutions to discuss. You come here with nothing but a fear topped with a bucket full of arrogance.
                          Again, Chechnya was not mentioned by me nor did I compare success in dealing with it.
                          We do not have the money or the government efficiency to do what these nations did.
                          Our problem is much older and will last as long as hindus and muslims exist in South Asia. No solution exists.
                          All we can do is manage it with what funds and tools are available to us. This is pretty much what the government has been doing.


                          With regards to your reaction baiting comments on maturity and arrogance, you show both those problems. Look in the mirror.
                          For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                            Kashmiris were given a choice? What bullocks! Your argument ends here.
                            Read the post more intently before bragging bullocks. The context was regarding your bringing in the 1947 partition.
                            And my argument stands, as vindicated by the present policy that is endorsed by all most EVERYBODY who matter or who have authority on the subject in hand.

                            As I have said before, I don't believe you have the authority or qualifications to challenge the current approach towards addressing the Kashmir insurgency, that is endorsed by people who have real-life experience and serving authority on the matter. Had your ideological pontification had any realpolitik or practical credibility, I am sure many in the decision loop would have advocated the same and the same would have been implemented. About time for you to smell the coffee.

                            Though, I have to admit, the best part of your argument was this beauty:

                            Because the constitution places the onus of India's territorial integrity on her armed forces and as I have previously quoated, "even if that warrants disproportionate force". Accept this and grow up. Once the Chechens chose the guns, there was nothing stopping the Russsians to crush, which were otherwise her own citizen.
                            Do I need to point out the obvious? I think it speaks for itself.
                            I repeat, "even if that warrants disproportionate force", when it comes to the question of India's territorial integrity. It IS that beautiful, grow up.
                            You have brandished your nonchalance for the nation's territorial integrity on two instances already, argueing in favour of secessionists forces on religious and ethenic lines and have been confronted by ALL your countrymen with NOBODY endorsing your reasoning and commentary.

                            So yes, I think it speaks for itself. ROLLEYES.
                            sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by lemontree View Post
                              (a) That is a very lame excuse. The fact that Kashmiris went to pray for a dead terrorist, whos' acts of murder were widely covered in the media, shows their mindset.
                              Your city elects the Shiv Sena and puts them into power, while not a single Kashmiri has ever voted for Geelani. This makes your argument lame.

                              (b) These processions/ protests are common in villages whenever terrorists are gunned down.
                              I have seen Kashmiri processions/protests at the deaths on civilians and even at the deaths of fellow Kashmiri soldiers.




                              Never any mass protest at the death of a terrorist. Though, as your example of Geelani shows, even if 4 people gather to protest the death of a terrorist, you will willingly label it as "Kashmiris protest at the death of a terrorist". This is exactly what you have done with Geelani's example.

                              For me they have choosen their side -they are on the side of the terrorists.
                              That's a misnomer. A terrorist is only a terrorist if and when he targets civilians, and if the Kashmiris are being targeted, than I highly doubt they will support the terrorists. On the other hand, if the target are the armed forces, than technically, those are not "terrorists". Either way, had the Kashmiris chosen sides, the Kashmiris would not have defied death threats from the LeT and a call for boycott from the Hurriyat to go out and vote in one of the largest electoral turnouts to elect their representatives. Ofcourse, the bigots on both sides will always seek to look at the Hurriyat as the representatives of the Kashmiris, no matter how much the Kashmiris defy the Hurriyat and elect their own representatives.


                              Their aims differ, SS wants political power, while the Hurriyat is the overt sessionist movement wing of Pakistan.
                              SS is legitimatized by the people's vote, Hurriyat is not.
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                              Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                              -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by bolo121 View Post
                                I summarised the salient points from your several pages of blather. You state the following:
                                Indian government is repressive towards the people.
                                This in not in keeping with indian democracy.
                                Kasmiris have therefore been let down by the government and should be allowed to choose their own path.

                                All I have mentioned is that this is a very idealistic and silly idea, India cannot risk it.
                                You're reaching your own conclusions. I have only presented the problem to the people here and that alone is making people anxious. I guess it suites folks better to keep things tucked under the carpet and out of site. I never discussed any such solution. If it's 'blather', than let it be. Don't come and try argue with me over conclusions I never presented.


                                My logic is fine. You dont like it and so naturally you have stooped to attacking the person instead of the message.
                                Your message was pink unicorns and bollywood singers dancing around trees. How were you expecting me to respond?


                                Again, Chechnya was not mentioned by me nor did I compare success in dealing with it.
                                You "liked" the post which compared Chechnya with Kashmir, and than presented me with some quite successful examples of conflict resolutions as if they were some dire failures. I cannot argue with someone who agrees with the methodology of Chechnya and sees Quebec as a failure.

                                We do not have the money or the government efficiency to do what these nations did.
                                Bleeding militarily, and economically, is not the cheaper option.

                                Our problem is much older and will last as long as hindus and muslims exist in South Asia. No solution exists.
                                All we can do is manage it with what funds and tools are available to us. This is pretty much what the government has been doing.
                                I disagree, and if that's the case, I don't want to be a party to some Hindu-Muslim blood feud.

                                With regards to your reaction baiting comments on maturity and arrogance, you show both those problems. Look in the mirror.
                                I often do reflect and concede all the time that I may be immature at many instances, but in this instance, I believe the Indian fanboys are outdoing me.
                                Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                                -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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