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Thread: How India mistreats Kashmir

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    Hate to be the one pointing out the Elephant in the room, but it seems like most folks here have reached a consensus that the game in Kashmir is about how best to hold a people against their will.

    They squarely blame India for the mess. The issue is not about who is at fault but how can their opinions be accommodated.....
    Kudos for addressing the real issue!

    Everyone else here only seems to have vindicated the article. The article isn't about AFSPA or even the army. It is about the attitudes of the hinterland Indians against people living in conflict zones such as Kashmir. We have people scrambling to defend the policies of the government, without anyone addressing those alienating attitudes, which can even be seen in the posts here.
    Tronic, dont catch the bull by its tail. Most posters including me have listed the benefits obtained by the Kashmiris and the safe guard of their special rights.

    Now J&K is not Karnataka or TN, or Mizoram or Nagaland - it is a piece of geopolitical real estate, that is vital for India. Now if the opinion of the Phd or Mphil educated Kashmiri is to make the state independent or give it to Pakistan - that is just not acceptable for India. So their opinion does not count. Period.
    The fate of Kashmir is not going to be decided because of the religious affinity of the population.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  2. #17
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree View Post
    Tronic, dont catch the bull by its tail. Most posters including me have listed the benefits obtained by the Kashmiris and the safe guard of their special rights.

    Now J&K is not Karnataka or TN, or Mizoram or Nagaland - it is a piece of geopolitical real estate, that is vital for India. Now if the opinion of the Phd or Mphil educated Kashmiri is to make the state independent or give it to Pakistan - that is just not acceptable for India. So their opinion does not count. Period.
    The fate of Kashmir is not going to be decided because of the religious affinity of the population.
    Let the Kashmiris list their own benefits and their own losses. Actually listening to what their opinion is rather than preconceiving it and shutting it out would be a good start. You're vindicating the article; the Kashmiris are automatically assumed to be anti-nationals and must constantly prove their loyalty to the country. If you want their land, at the least, give them their share of dignity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    It's true, and Kashmir isn't a special case. The states of Manipur, Assam, Mizoram, Nagaland, Meghalaya, Tripura and Arunachal Pradesh have lived under AFSPA far longer than the Kashmiris.
    You brought in ASFPA into discussion, I will repeat it. Then you blamed others for the same. People are entitled to answer your questions.

    As for the attitudes, a lot of Indians in the hinterland have twisted notions of what India actually is. They feel entitled to the land without giving a hoot about the sentiments of the people living on that land.
    What do you mean by Indians not giving hoot about their sentiments but feel entitled to the land ? Indians have embedded their will in constitution of India and the same constitution has bestowed them with Article 370 which gives all the hoots they want on many issues including immunity against all the social-cultural-political interferences and complete entitlements of their lands and property, minus security. This is what I was pointing out and you have been proved wrong on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    Errmm... Proved my point wrong? Quote from my post and highlight exactly which point of mines was proven wrong.

    And take one look at the date and timings of the posts before making ridiculous assertions.
    I have quoted your very first post.

    You want different yardsticks for different people?
    So my diagnosis was right.

    Every ASFPA state has issues unrelated to each other. Every insurgency has its own type and different ways in use to tackle it.

    Today there is no ASFPA in Punjab and no other restrictions like Kashmiris complaint about. I believe in experts who make decision on these special provisions of the law and other rights not given to them strictly because of security situation. GoI is not snatching their lands no one is converting them back to Hinduism etc.

    Punjabi suba issue, issue of Chandigarh, issue of water, (excluding 1984 riots) is no where on earth is an excuse to become a terrorist or secessionist. Also many throats have been slit and blood spilled by both the sides till today. Only an apologist will now demand sense of closure after weighing the blood is grams on a centre beam scale.

  4. #19
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    @Tronic,

    I could have continued discussing and lamenting about the son of the soil thingy vis-a-vis Kashmiris and their land, however I decided otherwise, because the way I see it, its all about bloody religion and extremism. When a community...any community, mixes politics with religion and starts thinking that wielding arms and pretending to be the big-burly is going to force the establishment to yield, high chances are, they are destined to get their arses whipped pretty hard.

    And coming to the Kashmiris and their plight - Bluntly put, they forgot to watch-out for the door while going out of the civil-dialogue/discussion room with GoI, when they didn't rally against their kin/militants against the routing of the Pundits, their slaughter and uprooting and know what, the door didn't either care about the outgoing butts.

    If a Gujrati or a Bengali is mad about the secessionist Kashmiri, its not because he has hideous plans of grabbing the Kashmiris land or daughter, it is all because he/she watched the Pundits getting butchered and routed from their ancestral land, just because the Pundit failed to convert to Islam and the Kashmiri driving him out didn't.

    As about the strategic geopolitical realities that Adrian pointed out - Well I really don't know you would care or understand.

    Period.
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  5. #20
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambidex View Post
    You brought in ASFPA into discussion, I will repeat it. Then you blamed others for the same. People are entitled to answer your questions.
    If all you took from my first post, was the first line, before hitting reply and going all defensive, than that's fine too. We can discuss AFSPA, which is an un-democratic and a draconian law, but you do so knowingly ignoring that there is more in the article, aswell as my first post, than that. Though, the attitudes themselves are becoming apparent.

    As for the attitudes, a lot of Indians in the hinterland have twisted notions of what India actually is. They feel entitled to the land without giving a hoot about the sentiments of the people living on that land.
    What do you mean by Indians not giving hoot about their sentiments but feel entitled to the land ? Indians have embedded their will in constitution of India and the same constitution has bestowed them with Article 370 which gives all the hoots they want on many issues including immunity against all the social-cultural-political interferences and complete entitlements of their lands and property, minus security. This is what I was pointing out and you have been proved wrong on this.

    I have quoted your very first post.
    You know very well what attitudes I am talking about there, though a good attempt at twisting it. To further prove my point, how many folks here think Article 370 should be abolished? (Oh wait, someone has already posted this, calling out for a demographic bomb in Kashmir to bring hinterland Indians to outnumber the Kashmiris.) Cheers!


    So my diagnosis was right.

    Every ASFPA state has issues unrelated to each other. Every insurgency has its own type and different ways in use to tackle it.

    Today there is no ASFPA in Punjab and no other restrictions like Kashmiris complaint about. I believe in experts who make decision on these special provisions of the law and other rights not given to them strictly because of security situation. GoI is not snatching their lands no one is converting them back to Hinduism etc.

    Punjabi suba issue, issue of Chandigarh, issue of water, (excluding 1984 riots) is no where on earth is an excuse to become a terrorist or secessionist. Also many throats have been slit and blood spilled by both the sides till today. Only an apologist will now demand sense of closure after weighing the blood is grams on a centre beam scale.
    All it takes to reimpose AFSPA in Punjab is the central government terming it as a "disturbed area". All the legislation for Punjab exists since 1983. Without clearly defining what constitutes a "disturbed area", it hands draconian power to a system which has historically shown authoritarian tendencies. Maybe you were't aware, but Chandigarh remained a "disturbed area" until only a month ago, and even than, the home ministry refused to lift AFSPA from the city because of "the possibility of revival of Khalistani seccionists in the city". Second important point is that, if today there is no militancy in Punjab, it is largely due to Pakistan deciding to pull support from the Khalistanis in the early 90s. The Kashmiris have not been so lucky, and today we see the Kashmiris suffering the brunt, while the militants are funneling in from Pakistan.
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  6. #21
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    @Tronic,

    I could have continued discussing and lamenting about the son of the soil thingy vis-a-vis Kashmiris and their land, however I decided otherwise, because the way I see it, its all about bloody religion and extremism. When a community...any community, mixes politics with religion and starts thinking that wielding arms and pretending to be the big-burly is going to force the establishment to yield, high chances are, they are destined to get their arses whipped pretty hard.
    For you to make that argument, this country needed a civil war in '47, not a two nation theory. When you have already divided the country based on religion, how can you suppress one community from making a call? (Though it must be pointed out that the Kashmiris wished to remain independent from both India and Pakistan. The Pakistanis hijacked the platform in '89, and India helped by rigging the elections).

    And coming to the Kashmiris and their plight - Bluntly put, they forgot to watch-out for the door while going out of the civil-dialogue/discussion room with GoI, when they didn't rally against their kin/militants against the routing of the Pundits, their slaughter and uprooting and know what, the door didn't either care about the outgoing butts.
    Again, It was thanks to India's dirty political games in Kashmir that Pakistan was running the show in the valley by the late '80s. The Hindu Kashmiris never had issues prior to the '80s. Why is that?

    If a Gujrati or a Bengali is mad about the secessionist Kashmiri, its not because he has hideous plans of grabbing the Kashmiris land or daughter, it is all because he/she watched the Pundits getting butchered and routed from their ancestral land, just because the Pundit failed to convert to Islam and the Kashmiri driving him out didn't.
    So at the end of the day, it is about religion. And I would have that Gujarati or Bengali get his government to take the fight across the border, where the real source of the problem is. That Bengali or Gujrati is wrong to hold soft targets such as the common Kashmiri culpable.

    As about the strategic geopolitical realities that Adrian pointed out - Well I really don't know you would care or understand.

    Period.
    I very well understand those geopolitical realities. However, let me just point out that when a people of the same country share an unequal relationship, the relationship becomes one of imperialists and their subjects. My country is supposed to look after my well-being, not make me expendable over the land I live on. This holds true not only in Kashmir, but the North East as well.
    Last edited by Tronic; 21 Nov 12, at 22:39.
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    We have to realize that the counter-insurgency operations being performed by the Army in J&K and other places, are operations which ideally, should be performed by the paramilitary and state police forces. The very fact that we need the Army to do them means that the conditions have deteriorated to such an extent that it is beyond the capability of the State Police, CRPF, etc. to maintain law and order. Now if the Army is supposed to do their job, they need to be given the constitutional authority to carry out their operations in the affected areas. Unless the AFSPA is imposed, they do not have that authority. If we revoke the AFSPA from Kashmir, we'll be forcing the IA to fight the insurgency with both hands tied behind their back. They are guaranteed to fail. We should also keep in mind that the constitutional validity of the act has been upheld by the Supreme Court. So it is not illegal or unconstitutional by any means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    Again, It was thanks to India's dirty political games in Kashmir that Pakistan was running the show in the valley by the late '80s. The Hindu Kashmiris never had issues prior to the '80s. Why is that?
    Ah, so because the Central government rigged an election, the Kashmiri Muslims (or more specifically, Kashmir valley Sunni Muslims) are justified in threatening, killing or hounding out nearly all the Kashmiri Pandits from their homeland.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 21 Nov 12, at 23:01.

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    I am all for banning AFSPA, but lets also abolish Article 370 and find a way for Kashmiri pundits to return to their homeland. Funny how no one mentions them.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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    Deploying army at home is always wrong option.
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    That Bengali or Gujrati is wrong to hold soft targets such as the common Kashmiri culpable.
    Please talk to Pandit families who fled the state back then. They will tell you that the common Kashmiri wholeheartedly participated in the pogrom against the Pandits.

    Another thing to understand is that the whole of kashmir doesn't belong to Kashmir valley Sunni Muslims. Even though they may be a majority in the state, there are several other communities in the state such as Shias, Muslim Gujjars, Buddhists, etc. who seem to have no problem with the center. Their only grouse is that in trying to pacify the valley Muslims, the other communities have been completely ignored by the GoI while handing out central funds for infrastructure and other programs in J&K. This is not surprising however. In any troubled region of India, the community with the most nuisance value is always given the most importance, many a times to the detriment of everybody else.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 21 Nov 12, at 23:18.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Deploying army at home is always wrong option.
    Deploying the Army and using Artillery and Air Force that are area weapons capable of immense destruction without even observation as did Pakistan and other countries is wrong.

    At home would be at home, if there were not foreign terrorist operating or if they were not foreign sponsored.

    The Indian Police is not like the US police which has SWAT, which are as good and destructive as any other infantry personnel, if not more brutal.
    Last edited by Ray; 22 Nov 12, at 08:16.


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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    For you to make that argument, this country needed a civil war in '47, not a two nation theory. When you have already divided the country based on religion, how can you suppress one community from making a call? (Though it must be pointed out that the Kashmiris wished to remain independent from both India and Pakistan. The Pakistanis hijacked the platform in '89, and India helped by rigging the elections).
    Its you who is rigging the discussion here. Its absolutely pointless to flash back to the partition. People were given a choice to chose their loyalities, while the GoI made it absolutely clear that the country won't tolerate any further secessionist demand based on religion. Heck, that's the corner stone of our opposition to a Muslim Kashmiri state based on religion. Some understood, some didn't and that brings the country's armed forces into play. Because the constitution places the onus of India's territorial integrity on her armed forces and as I have previously quoated, "even if that warrants disproportionate force". Accept this and grow up. Once the Chechens chose the guns, there was nothing stopping the Russsians to crush, which were otherwise her own citizen.


    Again, It was thanks to India's dirty political games in Kashmir that Pakistan was running the show in the valley by the late '80s. The Hindu Kashmiris never had issues prior to the '80s. Why is that?
    I doubt you to be a an astute authority to label whatever transpired in Kashmir since the Pakistani intrusion till 80's to be India's dirty political games. Lot many military and civilian officials who have served in that part of the country, with a LOT more authority and experience do not make such sweeping allegations.

    So at the end of the day, it is about religion. And I would have that Gujarati or Bengali get his government to take the fight across the border, where the real source of the problem is. That Bengali or Gujrati is wrong to hold soft targets such as the common Kashmiri culpable.
    The Kashmiri, valley Muslims are not that soft a target, when they have the Pundit's and other Hindus blood on their sleeves and are shamelessly perching on looted property.
    And YES, it IS about religion and religion being used as a weapon, while it should have been a thing of personal faith.

    I very well understand those geopolitical realities. However, let me just point out that when a people of the same country share an unequal relationship, the relationship becomes one of imperialists and their subjects. My country is supposed to look after my well-being, not make me expendable over the land I live on. This holds true not only in Kashmir, but the North East as well.
    They chose that unequal relationship, when they murdered people, raped women, called them Indians, burnt the Tricolour, raised the Pakistani flags in Lal Chowk and called for a secession and gave a damn to the consitution of the State of India. They have blood in their sleeves and we are still feeding them. Don't lampoon me.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 667medic View Post
    I had my first interaction with Indian-Kashmiris recently at my Ivy League University. These are educated men who did their PhD in Western countries. They squarely blame India for the mess. The issue is not about who is at fault but how can their opinions be accommodated.....
    Which part of Kashmir?

    Here what a person from the Pakistani Occupied Kashmir Mirpuri who is highly educated to say. He is is a political analyst and author of many books and booklets. Also he is Director Institute of Kashmir Affairs.


    Throughout my struggle for united and independent Jammu and Kashmir I have been subject to multiple pressures, some pressure from my colleagues or senior leaders and some from those who did not like what I did to promote an independent Kashmir, and expose black sheep in the struggle.

    Time and again ban was imposed on my thinking and writings. I was asked not to write as it created problems for the top leaders (who had mortgaged their struggle and conscience for the sake of political and monetary gains) because their bosses in Islamabad were angry because of what I wrote. In one such situation my friend and colleague Abbas Butt, who succeeded me as the President was asked to take some action against me. Abbas Butt replied action against him for what. He has not done anything against the party, party constitution or the struggle for an independent Jammu and Kashmir.

    Despite this bold stand, Abbas Butt had to set up a committee to scrutinise my articles. The committee after analysing my articles concluded that my articles were in line with the party constitution and represented true ideology of united and independent Jammu and Kashmir. After this the top leader ordered that Shabir Choudhry should not write anything for the period of six months; and when he writes he should submit his articles to a committee of three men; and if they were satisfied then they would allow him to publish the articles.

    This was a great insult to my wisdom, talent and research on Kashmir; and to rub salt they included a name of a man in a committee who had only seen colleges and universities from a distance, as the man was only educated to class 7 from Pakistani Administered Kashmir. I thought it was better not to write anything on Kashmir, or write another novel instead of submitting my articles to those who lacked wisdom, qualification and intellect. I did not write anything for many months, but when Abdul Ghani Lone was massacred for opposing a dictation of Islamabad, I started writing again by saying that it was criminal negligence to remain quiet now.

    Forces of occupation and their agents know a pen of a true nationalist writer is very effective weapon. It is because of this they try to impose restrictions on free thinking and debates and try to gag writers and analysts, as they don’t want people to know their game plan. These directionless people promoted as leaders want the status quo to continue, as this suits their agenda and agenda of their pay masters. When I get personal attacks and abuse on social media, I understand why that was happening. I say to myself, once again I have hit the target and upset those powers that want the status quo to continue. I feel I have upset forces of extremism, violence and hatred; and attracted their wrath.
    Dr Shabir Choudhry's blog
    PROFILE OF Dr SHABIR CHOUDHRY

    Dr Shabir Choudhry was born in Nakker Shamali (near Panjeri) in District Bhimber, Azad Kashmir. He went to UK in 1966, and holds a dual nationality.

    Dr Shabir Choudhry has done extensive research on the issue of Kashmir and Indo Pakistan relations. He passed BA Honours in Politics and History, and Mphil in International Relations (title of the thesis, ‘Kashmir and Partition of India’); and title of his PhD thesis is ‘Kashmir- An issue of a nation not a dispute of a land’.

    Apart from this Dr Shabir Choudhry passed Post Graduates Certificates in Education, and NVQ Assessor’s qualifications; and taught English in London.

    Political Achievements
    Founder member of JKLF (Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front established in 1977) and got elected as a Press Secretary in 1984.

    Became its Secretary General in 1985, and resigned from this post in 1996.
    Got elected President of JKLF and Europe in May 1999, and decided not to contest in elections of July 2001.
    Said good – bye to the JKLF as it is in many groups and is largely seen as advancing a Pakistani agenda on Kashmir dispute, and set up a new party Kashmir National Party in May 2008.
    .

    At present, he is:

    Spokesman Kashmir National Party and Director Diplomatic Committee;


    Founder member and Director Institute of Kashmir Affairs;


    A founder Member and Trustee/ Director of London based registered charity, Kashmir Foundation International and resigned from this position in August 2001
    Last edited by Ray; 22 Nov 12, at 08:52.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    Let the Kashmiris list their own benefits and their own losses. Actually listening to what their opinion is rather than preconceiving it and shutting it out would be a good start. You're vindicating the article; the Kashmiris are automatically assumed to be anti-nationals and must constantly prove their loyalty to the country. If you want their land, at the least, give them their share of dignity.
    You had somewhere also written that the issue of Kashmir is religion.

    Who insists on using religion as the political and blackmail tool? Search your heart and you shall find the answer. Sunni Kashmiris of the Valley or the majority of Indians?

    India has the second largest Muslim population of the world. Do you find them feeling that the mess in India is all because of the others?

    Of course, if one has an axe to grind, then indeed one could find so many errors in India to highlight without any logic.

    On AFSPA, you have to understand the environment.

    Have you been to Kashmir and do you think Kashmir lies astride the NH 1A? How are the interiors connected? With broad wide autobahns where if a terrorist is apprehended, he can be with speed and with alacrity be taken to the nearest Police Station?

    Try going into the high mountains where it is pine forests and snow. Check the time it takes to reach those places. Now, if a terrorist holes in a village in such a terrain, you will wait for the police to fetch up before you apprehend the terrorist? He would have fled thumbing his nose at the SF.

    Therefore, AFSPA.

    You apprehend, interrogate and hand him over to the Police.

    Why interrogate?

    Because of the universal adage of every single country - intelligence gained late is no intelligence.

    By spot interrogation one finds out the aim, the numbers in the group of terrorists and where they have holed up and where they have made the cache.

    It is the air conditioned drawing room, pink champagne drinking, diamond oozing 'intellectuals' who have no clue of reality who undertake the glib talk of removing the AFSPA.

    AFSPA does not absolve the Army from cases filed on Human Rights.

    Further, the Army would prefer that they are relieved of the duty. It will ensure less deployment and so there will be longer peace tenures where they will be with their families instead of this long tenures in operational areas.

    My children saw 11 schools in their 12 classes that was essential for High School education. Just to tell you how these long operational tenures affect normal family lives. You call that fair? And you feel that makes the Army men happy that they have these long operational tenures in CI areas?

    But then, what will happen if AFSPA is removed? Guess? The Pakistan sponsored terrorist will flow in and there will be mayhem and if that is what is your idea of a solution, then go ahead with your contentions.

    Even the hinterland of India is not safe from the terrorists. In Mumbai, the NSG had to be brought in where some of the glittering chatterati would have said that why bring in the Army? However, it hit them in their drawing rooms and so they were scared out of their underwear and there was no such liberal peep out of them.
    Last edited by Ray; 22 Nov 12, at 08:59.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

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    Kashmiri Pandits offered three choices by radical Islamists » Indian Defence Review

    This is what they were doing in Kashmir during 90s.

    “Zalimo, O Kafiro, Kashmir harmara chod do”.
    (O! Merciless, O! Kafirs leave our Kashmir)

    “Kashmir mein agar rehna hai, Allah-ho-Akbar kahna hoga”
    (Any one wanting to live in Kashmir will have to convert to Islam)

    La Sharqia la gharbia, Islamia! Islamia!
    From East to West, there will be only Islam

    “Musalmano jago, Kafiro bhago”,
    (O! Muslims, Arise, O! Kafirs, scoot)

    “Islam hamara maqsad hai, Quran hamara dastur hai, jehad hamara Rasta hai”
    (Islam is our objective, Q’uran is our constitution, Jehad is our way of our life)

    “Kashmir banega Pakistan”
    (Kashmir will become Pakistan)

    “Kashir banawon Pakistan, Bataw varaie, Batneiw saan”
    (We will turn Kashmir into Pakistan alongwith Kashmiri Pandit women, but without their men folk)

    “Pakistan se kya Rishta? La Ilah-e- Illalah”
    (Islam defines our relationship with Pakistan)

    Dil mein rakho Allah ka khauf; Hath mein rakho Kalashnikov.
    (With fear of Allah ruling your hearts, wield a Kalashnikov)

    “Yahan kya chalega, Nizam-e- Mustafa”
    (We want to be ruled under Shari’ah)

    “People’s League ka kya paigam, Fateh, Azadi aur Islam”
    (“What is the message of People’s League? Victory, Freedom and Islam.”)

    Wall posters in fairly large letters, proclaiming Kashmir as ‘Islamic Republic of Kashmir’, became a common sight in the entire Valley. So were the big and prominent advertisements in local dailies, proclaiming their intent:

    ‘Aim of the present struggle is the supremacy of Islam in Kashmir, in all walks of life and nothing else. Any one who puts a hurdle in our way will be annihilated’.
    Press release of Hizb-ul-Mujahideen (HM) published in the morning edition of Urdu Daily ‘Aftab’ of April, 01, 1990.

    ‘Kashmiri Pandits responsible for duress against Muslims should leave the Valley within two days’.
    Head lines of Urdu Daily, Al Safa, of April, 14, 1990.

    ‘With Kalashnikov in one hand and Quran in the other the Mujahids would openly roam the streets singing the Tarana-e- Kashmir.’

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