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Thread: Where to Now for the GOP - Presidential Elections

  1. #136
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chogy View Post
    Creationism isn't incompatible with science. Example: 4.5 billion years ago, God spun up a disk of dust and gas, formed a solar system, and placed Earth in the ideal orbit with a large, companion moon and a strong magnetic field to keep solar radiation at bay. Perfect.

    Where it crashes and burns is the Young Earth notion. If politicians want to pander to young earthers, then it cannot be called science any more... call it what it is, theology.

    Separate the classes. Call one of them "Science" and the other "Creation Bible Study." Make the first a requirement for all students, the second optional. "But they contradict each other!" Oh well, there's a lot of contradiction in life; let the students themselves decide what is true.
    Never heard of Young Earth(and I have no need of that),but separate classes is what I had.Worked perfect.The thing is,both science and religion are right,but for some folks there needs to be a discrepancy.Too much a need to challenge authority
    Those who know don't speak
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  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Never heard of Young Earth(and I have no need of that),but separate classes is what I had.Worked perfect.The thing is,both science and religion are right,but for some folks there needs to be a discrepancy.Too much a need to challenge authority
    actually they don't. Even genesis doesn't agree with genesis. What about the hindu origin myth or the siouz indians? i am interested in hearing how the two biblical stories which contradict each other and science live together in tthe same house The two contradictory creation accounts. Is the earth a few thousand yearsoldas the bible says or billions? if you believe the literal world which for me is laughable given some of the claims then the earth is 4000 yrs old. perhaps you don't under stand the nature of our more extreme christians. they believe that as a scientific fact and want it taught and deny things such as evoloution etc......Myself once you get past the stars not being holes in a ocean i don't get how you maintain the literal construct but theymanage it. faith by definition doesn't require proof or to be proven. i am fine with an individual holdingthose beliefs but in a public funded school system if it isn't science based it is state sponsored religon the antithesis of the american experiment and our enlightenment ideals
    Last edited by Roosveltrepub; 22 Nov 12, at 00:29. Reason: actually eventhe idea of a state religous authority is unamerican
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  3. #138
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    if you believe the literal world which for me is laughable given some of the claims then the earth is 4000 yrs old. perhaps you don't under stand the nature of our more extreme christians.
    Actually young earthers believe the Earth is about 6,500 years old (if that makes a difference) and this was determined by some ancient monk who read the Genesis lineage chapters where the author states "Josephat lived 654 years, then he died. His son Micah lived 865 years, then he died, etc". Added up, they figured Adam was created something like 4,500 B.C.

    Trivia aside, I think young earthers are a very small minority in those who believe in Creationism. Most accept the Genesis story as an allegory for how mankind fell away from God, and have no problems with an old earth that God created and sometimes intervenes.

    Yes they can be politically noisy. But I don't disrespect them, just as I wouldn't disrespect Native American creation stories. In the end, whatever makes you happy in life. Just don't call it "science", because science is based upon evidence, and ALL of the evidence points to an old Earth.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chogy View Post
    Actually young earthers believe the Earth is about 6,500 years old (if that makes a difference) and this was determined by some ancient monk who read the Genesis lineage chapters where the author states "Josephat lived 654 years, then he died. His son Micah lived 865 years, then he died, etc". Added up, they figured Adam was created something like 4,500 B.C.

    Trivia aside, I think young earthers are a very small minority in those who believe in Creationism. Most accept the Genesis story as an allegory for how mankind fell away from God, and have no problems with an old earth that God created and sometimes intervenes.

    Yes they can be politically noisy. But I don't disrespect them, just as I wouldn't disrespect Native American creation stories. In the end, whatever makes you happy in life. Just don't call it "science", because science is based upon evidence, and ALL of the evidence points to an old Earth.
    agreed and the issue here in the USA is the push to teach it in public schools. I respect their right to believe what works in their spiritual lives
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  5. #140
    Senior Contributor bonehead's Avatar
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    To date the earth using the Bible takes a lot of assumptions. You have to throw out the window the fact that the Bible isn't and was never meant to be the full history of the earth or even of mankind for that matter. Then there is the issue of time. We are talking about an entity ,God, who has made the entire universe and everything in it. Why would he have to limit his concept of time to a day cycle of a single planet amongst billions of stars, planets, moons etc to use as a basis of his 24 hour day?
    Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

  6. #141
    Banned Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Whew! Crazy busy couple of weeks. First a week of eating crow and then work explodes and starting Monday I'm getting my house torn apart for a complete bathroom rebuild and new windows, so I've been running around prepping that.

    So. That whole election thingie. I vaguely remember being non-committal about the whole thing.

    HAHAHAHAHAHA! I make joke about myself.

    So I am trying to avoid any feeding frenzy that may exist for the blame game - I don't think any real conclusions can be drawn about "why" Romney lost for a few months when all the dust settles. But lost he did and in my opinion that's a Very Bad Thing. In a brief drive-by of "what I think it means" reconnect, it looks like the one thing I was 1000% positive COULD NOT happen, happened: Romney drew less conservative interest than McCain. McCain. If that interpretation holds true then I really do have to accept that my view of what the electorate looks like is flawed - even if Romney'd won, and it was close, it would not have been anywhere near the blowout I truly expected and I'd probably be asking the same questions, if with less fear and trepidation and resignation in my voice: is it possible for the Repubs to run a "macro" candidate anymore? Is there any such thing as general appeal anymore?

    But if, for a surprising number of folks, a $20 trillion debt isn't a big deal - let alone the perfidy and fecklessness of Obama himself - then I don't see a way to convince them otherwise.

    Anyway, Happy Thanksgiving.

    -dale

  7. #142
    Banned Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    dale,

    if you believe the bible to be history despite all the relevant facts literally staring you in the face...you know, things like rock formations and fossils...then tell me, how well will you advocate for science and education and technology, the supposed pillars of our new economy?
    Dunno. Not really a priority for me now compared to other things.

    moreover, half the time creationism -trumps- science at the local level, precisely in the deep red Religious Belt.
    So what if it does?

    -dale

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    pari,



    if you read the rest of the article...it's pretty obvious that's not true.
    Which bit? You think Obama doesn't believe in a great invisible unknowable monster who created heaven and earth and who dictates his life with spankings in this life and the next if he's naughty?
    What's all that about being a Christian and attending Al Sharpton's church all those years then? Some of Gods words and edicts are good but others are not?
    Like Dale I'm in the non-believer camp, so it's all shades of delusion to me.

    Problem for me of course is I'm still hard pressed to find a poly who doesn't automatically genuflect and knock their heads, knees or various other appendages whenever a holy relic hoves into sight.
    The difference between Obama and Jindal seems to be Jindal is a man of conviction, so would burn such as I at the stake for both religious and political reasons, whereas Obama switches most of his convictions to suit his environment, so would probably only burn me at the stake for political ones.
    Last edited by Parihaka; 23 Nov 12, at 09:12.
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  9. #144
    Military Professional Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    Which bit? You think Obama doesn't believe in a great invisible unknowable monster who created heaven and earth and who dictates his life with spankings in this life and the next if he's naughty?
    What's all that about being a Christian and attending Al Sharpton's church all those years then? Some of Gods words and edicts are good but others are not?
    Like Dale I'm in the non-believer camp, so it's all shades of delusion to me.

    Problem for me of course is I'm still hard pressed to find a poly who doesn't automatically genuflect and knock their heads, knees or various other appendages whenever a holy relic hoves into sight.
    The difference between Obama and Jindal seems to be Jindal is a man of conviction, so would burn such as I at the stake for both religious and political reasons, whereas Obama switches most of his convictions to suit his environment, so would probably only burn me at the stake for political ones.
    Jindal a man of conviction?

    He converted for his personal ambition since being what he was a albatross around his neck if he wanted to make a mark.

    If he didn't then would surely burn at the stake of political vote-ability in the USA.

    Clever chap I would concede.

    And changed his name to Bobby!

    Easier on the American ear than Piyush!


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  10. #145
    Minion Minion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Jindal a man of conviction?
    If he's clever he must know advocating creationism being taught in schools is a losing proposition. But yes, he's still a politician

  11. #146
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    pari,

    Which bit? You think Obama doesn't believe in a great invisible unknowable monster who created heaven and earth and who dictates his life with spankings in this life and the next if he's naughty?
    What's all that about being a Christian and attending Al Sharpton's church all those years then? Some of Gods words and edicts are good but others are not?
    Like Dale I'm in the non-believer camp, so it's all shades of delusion to me.

    Problem for me of course is I'm still hard pressed to find a poly who doesn't automatically genuflect and knock their heads, knees or various other appendages whenever a holy relic hoves into sight.
    The difference between Obama and Jindal seems to be Jindal is a man of conviction, so would burn such as I at the stake for both religious and political reasons, whereas Obama switches most of his convictions to suit his environment, so would probably only burn me at the stake for political ones.
    to begin with, the article was not talking about jindal but about rubio. either way, though, it's pretty clear that obama's belief in the bible in that of a metaphoric believer, not a literal one. ("i believe in evolution.")

    moreover, when does literal belief in a religion automatically = "conviction", or for that matter, even decency?

    finally, what a literal belief in the bible does tell you is that the man is not willing to acknowledge fairly obvious facts right in front of his face if they run counter to his pre-formed ideas. they're also the type that believes compromise is the devil's way of getting the believer to sin, and to look at the opposing side as truly evil and not just mistaken.

    in other words, shades of delusion they may be to a pure atheist, but quite important shades...otherwise what difference between OBL and GW Bush?
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  12. #147
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    dale,

    In a brief drive-by of "what I think it means" reconnect, it looks like the one thing I was 1000% positive COULD NOT happen, happened: Romney drew less conservative interest than McCain. McCain.
    the exit polls i see indicate that Romney garnered close to and in quite a few cases exceeded the conservative turnout of BOTH Bush and McCain, as indicated by comparison of their performance in red states (yes, i know, inexact).

    but in the swing states and the blue states, Obama not only had a better showing than Kerry did in 2004, Romney also did considerably worse than Bush.

    this indication is that it was not the conservative turnout that was the issue here but how well Romney did among...everyone else.

    But if, for a surprising number of folks, a $20 trillion debt isn't a big deal -
    this moves into the policy arena, of course, but have you ever considered that perhaps it is not that those voters do not care about the debt, but that they prefer obama's vision of dealing with the issue vice romney's?

    then I don't see a way to convince them otherwise.
    this sounds like "conservatism has not failed America, America has failed conservatism!"

    i do believe moderate republicanism/conservatism is a winner. it's pretty clear trying to be "severely conservative" is not. unless, of course, you think any of the other clowns in the GOP primary could have been better than Romney...
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  13. #148
    Banned Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    dale,

    the exit polls i see indicate that Romney garnered close to and in quite a few cases exceeded the conservative turnout of BOTH Bush and McCain, as indicated by comparison of their performance in red states (yes, i know, inexact).

    but in the swing states and the blue states, Obama not only had a better showing than Kerry did in 2004, Romney also did considerably worse than Bush.

    this indication is that it was not the conservative turnout that was the issue here but how well Romney did among...everyone else.
    Yeah, like I said, it'll be a few months before I think we can really say how it happened. If it comes down to simple campaign effectiveness, then that's disappointing, but not shocking. To me, anyway.

    this moves into the policy arena, of course, but have you ever considered that perhaps it is not that those voters do not care about the debt, but that they prefer obama's vision of dealing with the issue vice romney's?
    Yes I considered it and rejected it. Obamanomics consists of two things: print money and ignore the problems. Even if you support that policy that still qualifies as not caring about the debt.

    this sounds like "conservatism has not failed America, America has failed conservatism!"

    i do believe moderate republicanism/conservatism is a winner. it's pretty clear trying to be "severely conservative" is not. unless, of course, you think any of the other clowns in the GOP primary could have been better than Romney...
    Yeah, I don't want to end up in "What's the Matter with Kansas" territory myself. It may be that by tailoring out some of the kinds of social themes that seem to so violently turn people off that things'll be just fine for Repubs moving forward. I don't know. Depends on how many folks want to be grownups IMO.

    -dale

  14. #149
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    Romney was doing well.

    He was doing so well in the Opinion Polls.

    Wonder why he lost.

    Maybe the Hurricane on the East Coast showed the God was on the side of Obama!


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

  15. #150
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Romney was doing well.

    He was doing so well in the Opinion Polls.

    Wonder why he lost.

    Maybe the Hurricane on the East Coast showed the God was on the side of Obama!
    He wasn't really.

    Most polls showed him edging up after the first debate but that stabilized. Nate Silver of Election Forecasts - FiveThirtyEight Blog - NYTimes.com had a good handle of how the polls trended. He predicted that even without the impact of the Sandy, Obama still would have carried the election.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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