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Thread: UK pulling out of EU?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    The Germans should get real and get out before they start having to pay for the French to retire earlier than themselves.
    You realize that every single anti-EU plan from German conservatives includes a follow-on plan for a close union between exactly Germany, France and the Benelux states? Germany and France have more than the EU. Look up the Élysée Treaty, the Conseil franco-allemand de défense et de sécurité, the Blaesheim Meetings.

    Hell, without Germany forcing the issue upon France the UK would never have been allowed to join the EEC.

  2. #32
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    Trade would still happen just under different tariff regimes, it wouldn't implode and neither Europe nor Uk would stop selling to each other.

    Fisheries would revert to UK and the EU common fisheries quotas and whatnot would be lost. Any companies granted quotas would have to apply and pay UK instead of EU if it left, if they fished in its' territorial waters. The 3 billion euro budget of the Eu common fisheries wouldn't have to be sustained but the Uk fisheries are already paid for in addition their share of this burden. So there would be savings just from this aspect alone.

    Tourism would increase in Portugal and Spain IF they reverted to their own currencies and devalued. Same applied to Greece. People go to Egypt and Turkey because they are cheaper in spite of different currencies and because of the higher purchasing power it grants people with euros, dollars, and pounds etc...

    Your assumption is just because it is not directly paid for the burden does not exist. I disagree with you. The 12 billion pound burden is direct the indirect burden is far higher. If the implicit price someone pays includes that burden and the overall economy carries it when it is gone there is savings.

    What made Europe great was everybody competing under their national regimes and trading their niche economic advantages. Once you create a regulatory malaise and abridge currency competition, you create incentive for fiscal insolvency (that you have right now growing and growing). The other aspect is supranational bureaucracy that is unaccountable to anyone but themselves.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...bn-a-year.html
    How much does the European Union cost Britain? 2008
    Like I said 50-60 billion pounds...

    The Common Agricultural Policy costs Britain at least £16.8 billion per annum.
    The Common Fisheries Policy costs Britain at least £3.275 billion per annum.
    Over-regulation on business costs Britain at least £28 billion per annum.
    In 2008 membership of the European Union costs Britain almost £65.675 billion per annum gross or almost £55.775 billion per annum net.


    Think about this, the UK would probably save 2-3+ billion pounds in aggregate (for people, economy, businesses) just on Sugar. Since the EU provides quotas for beet sugar and UK could simply abolish everything and go free market and import at world price, their consumers, businesses (confectionery, bakeries, etc) and the economy as a whole would be better off just on on this commodity alone.

    http://www.brugesgroup.com/eu/the-uk...s.htm?xp=paper
    Originally from Sochi, Russia.

  3. #33
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    I just returned home, so only a short & quick reply. First thanks for the link, now I can at least argue with the numbers. I started reading through their paper to find out how they calculate their "indirect costs". Turns out, they don't. The first example were the costs of CAP (16.8 Billion according to them) to having to pay higher prices than on the international market. This would lead to costs of 1.2% of the GDP "estimates Ian Milne". There is no explanation given how or why. It just is. I even went to "Global Britain" to look if he published any papers there showing how he gets to this number, but no dice. No afterwards there a bunch of calculation that result in the endnumber showed above, but all those are based on this magic 1.2%. He might as well have used 1 or 5% and the results would have been higher or lower.

    The rest seems be similar. Numbers just appear. Billions of costs are proclaimed without showing how. Often there is not even a fabricated calculations for them (nor any cited sources).

    Further..even if we ignore for a minute that all those numbers are made up and accept that there "indirect costs" (which there, though not anywhere near as high as proclaimed), than you to be consequent and also calulate the "indirect gains" caused by the EU. The vast increase in trade, the easier access to european money flows as well as tourism and much more. Of course it would be very hard to tell exactly how much of the trade increase (and other areas) might have come without the EU so giving any numbers would be just making shit up. And I'll leave that to the Bruges Group.

  4. #34
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    Which on is it, 118bn or 50-60bn?

    We are not talking 1% margin here.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  5. #35
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    My feeling and estimate it is around 50-60 billion pounds after you net out benefits. Most of the benefits accrued due to consolidation of manufacturing and financial firms, which would have happened anyways if they simply followed the course of Switzerland.

    I can come up with very simple estimates for sugar and fish of around 5 billion each. This is just the seen loss you can double them if you consider prices paid by consumers vis a vis prices paid without subsidies going to Brussels and onto foreign companies. ( I was being generous with 2-3 billion for sugar before but apparently you don't get it simply get the amount of tons of sugar UK uses per year and times it by the subsidy (ergo double the cost more or less))

    UK faces $2.2bln bill to cover eurocrat pensions

    The EU’s bureaucracy is set to grow while the rest of Europe is wracked by austerity measures. UK taxpayers will reportedly fork out an extra $2.2 billion annually for the next seven years to pay for the doubling of pensions for Brussels’ officials.

    A confidential letter leaked to The Telegraph also reveals that EU pensions are set to double to more than $3.2 billion a year by 2045.
    British EU membership already costs more than $104 billion a year in direct and indirect costs. The new increase in pensions means $15.7 billion extra for the next seven years.
    Alot of these numbers are estimates but some do get paid... With the amount of transparency the EU provides you could simply argue that because you don't see it, it doesn't exist.

    My last link provided a picture of capital at risk of about "UK has a Maximum Possible Loss of €149.2 billion on current capital and commitments to the institutions involved in the financing of the EU and the euro." that UK is exposed to, so if Greece, Spain, or others need bond haircuts it would need to submit capital to shore up the ECB and other financial institutions that are EURO involved even though it is not in the Eurozone... Please tell me how do you consider those costs once they come due, they are implicit but not explicit until they happen BUT some of those capital requirements were shorn up with UK funds so the money is there at least partially.
    Originally from Sochi, Russia.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyppok View Post
    With the amount of transparency the EU provides you could simply argue that because you don't see it, it doesn't exist..
    I'll kindly refer you to Financial Programming and Budget

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    I find it ironic and somewhat concerning that some here argue the meaning of accession to "the Communities" means the European Economic Community, the European Coal and Steel Community and the European Atomic Energy Community" can be taken to willingness to accede to single European state.

    Let me be very clear on this: I was not even alive when Britain last had a referendum on Europe but the Europe that Britain voted to continue it's membership of in 1975 was vastly different from that which exists today - why do you think the Irish have had so many (disregarded) votes? Why were the votes against a Constitution ignored? A 'Community' does not imply a single supra national authority. This is the real I think in Britain: Our politicians (who we hold in little regard anyway) have for far too long not allowed the British people to have a say in our relations with the EEC - EU. This is the fault of our politicians but it more than encouraged by the Europhiles on the continent who fear national democracy.

    Whether you want to argue if we have been sufficiently asked or warned of the direction that the 'European project' would take is beside the point if you cannot justify that such a supranational state is needed or is beneficial and on my point that the EU is not required for trade you are eloquently silent. We trade with China but are not 'communist' nor do we share a foreign policy or single currency with other trade partners. Why then is this so vital in Europe?

    This might make sense if the EU did in fact promote free trade and economic competitiveness but it does not. The single market is entirely artificial and politically subsidised; CAP to keep French farmers happy etc etc. This actually makes food more expensive. IF we could truly trade freely we would not have 'working times directives' and 1001 other directives such that a carrot is a fruit when used to make jam because ALL jam must be made of fruit. Why do we need insanity in the 'world jam market'? Who gives a damn? Our unelected rulers...

    This of course is the second point on which our German EU enthusiasts remain so eloquently silent; there is NO democratic consent for this 'project'. This dangerous fact you seem unwilling to recognise or answer. The colonists in the revolutionary US said "no taxation without representation" but in a system where the executive (Commission) alone can propose law and in which the executive is unelected and unanswerable to the people it claims to represent you are brewing a new revolution - for precisely the same reasons which cost Britain the American Colonies. Do you think the Greeks or Spaniards would re-elect Barruso and Van Rumpuy?

    This whole 'project' has gone forward disastrously ignoring democratic objections and good financial sense (yes many warned that the euro system was flawed from the start) and with ECB and EU collusion to bring about exactly this 'crisis'. They have manufactured what they a 'beneficial crisis' precisely so that can accumulate financial control knowing that once they have this national democracy is in fact meaningless; that is my opinion but let suppose that in fact there is no underlying agenda and I am being paranoid: Then the whole thing has been so incompetently mismanaged that the lot of them should be sacked. When you create a new currency with the aim of increasing wealth and have over 25% unemployed in some countries, then have the audacity to claim the answer is more of what has caused this situation you are bordering on the definition of insanity!

    As for the budget Programming etc... ask the Auditors who haven't signed off the EU accounts for 18 years; they can't even account for how they have spent out money.

  8. #38
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    I am curious, if it is so bad and unattainable for Brits to stay in, why there has not been a referendum to exit?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  9. #39
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    My feeling and estimate it is around 50-60 billion pounds after you net out benefits. Most of the benefits accrued due to consolidation of manufacturing and financial firms, which would have happened anyways if they simply followed the course of Switzerland.
    You do realize that the costs (real and imagined) also apply to any country like Switzerland? Something that has been explained roughly five times already in this thread alone.

    I can come up with very simple estimates for sugar and fish of around 5 billion each. This is just the seen loss you can double them if you consider prices paid by consumers vis a vis prices paid without subsidies going to Brussels and onto foreign companies. ( I was being generous with 2-3 billion for sugar before but apparently you don't get it simply get the amount of tons of sugar UK uses per year and times it by the subsidy (ergo double the cost more or less))
    Again, if you count those “indirect costs”, some of which certainly do exists, regardless of their actual size, you also have to count the “indirect benefits”.

    Alot of these numbers are estimates but some do get paid... With the amount of transparency the EU provides you could simply argue that because you don't see it, it doesn't exist.
    all of the EU spendings is matter of public record and ready at your disposal. (I refer you to Kato's post. A source which I have used & posted several times)

    My last link provided a picture of capital at risk of about "UK has a Maximum Possible Loss of €149.2 billion on current capital and commitments to the institutions involved in the financing of the EU and the euro." that UK is exposed to, so if Greece, Spain, or others need bond haircuts it would need to submit capital to shore up the ECB and other financial institutions that are EURO involved even though it is not in the Eurozone... Please tell me how do you consider those costs once they come due, they are implicit but not explicit until they happen BUT some of those capital requirements were shorn up with UK funds so the money is there at least partially.
    Much of this would affect the UK even if they were not in the EU. Just like Iceland ( a non-eu-country) default did.

    I find it ironic and somewhat concerning that some here argue the meaning of accession to "the Communities" means the European Economic Community, the European Coal and Steel Community and the European Atomic Energy Community" can be taken to willingness to accede to single European state.
    Nobody here said that. Ever. What I did say was that you misunderstood and misused the term “the Communities”, as well as rejected the claim that the growing political union was sneaked on the UK (and supplying sources and citations for both).

    Let me be very clear on this: I was not even alive when Britain last had a referendum on Europe but the Europe that Britain voted to continue it's membership of in 1975 was vastly different from that which exists today - why do you think the Irish have had so many (disregarded) votes? Why were the votes against a Constitution ignored? A 'Community' does not imply a single supra national authority. This is the real I think in Britain: Our politicians (who we hold in little regard anyway) have for far too long not allowed the British people to have a say in our relations with the EEC - EU. This is the fault of our politicians but it more than encouraged by the Europhiles on the continent who fear national democracy.
    You keep trumping the same horn, but fail to come up any real melody. Until you do I simply refer you to my old posts.

    Whether you want to argue if we have been sufficiently asked or warned of the direction that the 'European project' would take is beside the point if you cannot justify that such a supranational state is needed or is beneficial and on my point that the EU is not required for trade you are eloquently silent. We trade with China but are not 'communist' nor do we share a foreign policy or single currency with other trade partners. Why then is this so vital in Europe?
    The EU is not a supranational state, and quite a bit away from it. It is on the other hand a supranational organization. Which is something different.

    [Quotes]This might make sense if the EU did in fact promote free trade and economic competitiveness but it does not. The single market is entirely artificial and politically subsidised; CAP to keep French farmers happy etc etc. This actually makes food more expensive. IF we could truly trade freely we would not have 'working times directives' and 1001 other directives such that a carrot is a fruit when used to make jam because ALL jam must be made of fruit. Why do we need insanity in the 'world jam market'? Who gives a damn? Our unelected rulers... [/quotes]

    Of course it is not a “perfect free market” in the sense of of the economic concept, because that does not exist, anywhere (Somalia might be close though). Apart from that it is still pretty close. Guess how Germany dominated the European markets (even before the €)

    This of course is the second point on which our German EU enthusiasts remain so eloquently silent; there is NO democratic consent for this 'project'. This dangerous fact you seem unwilling to recognise or answer. The colonists in the revolutionary US said "no taxation without representation" but in a system where the executive (Commission) alone can propose law and in which the executive is unelected and unanswerable to the people it claims to represent you are brewing a new revolution - for precisely the same reasons which cost Britain the American Colonies. Do you think the Greeks or Spaniards would re-elect Barruso and Van Rumpuy?
    Key word here: Propose. They can not enact it on their own. That still requires the European Parliament, which actually is elected.

    This whole 'project' has gone forward disastrously ignoring democratic objections and good financial sense (yes many warned that the euro system was flawed from the start) and with ECB and EU collusion to bring about exactly this 'crisis'. They have manufactured what they a 'beneficial crisis' precisely so that can accumulate financial control knowing that once they have this national democracy is in fact meaningless; that is my opinion but let suppose that in fact there is no underlying agenda and I am being paranoid: Then the whole thing has been so incompetently mismanaged that the lot of them should be sacked. When you create a new currency with the aim of increasing wealth and have over 25% unemployed in some countries, then have the audacity to claim the answer is more of what has caused this situation you are bordering on the definition of insanity!
    So you do believe that the EU created the financial crisis on purpose to gain more power? Seriously?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    I am curious, if it is so bad and unattainable for Brits to stay in, why there has not been a referendum to exit?
    Takes time I guess and public outcry, my guess it will happen.

    kato that is closer to a slogan than a budget.
    "Sustainable development, and Development of natural resources" is all nice indeed (sounds very benevolent)
    reality is you have no idea on which agency what is spent, which part goes to salaries and which to capital expenditures, whom bid on what and when, and WHERE it was spent.
    That won't be disclosed but the overall figures are neatly presented with jolly slogans of bs.

    You can go click a link on nyc budget or nyc and it will give you far more detail and if you want to learn more you can file a FOIA request, can you file one in Eu probably will you be provided information no... no you will not.



    I figure another year or two once there is more at risk capital put up for the Spanish, Greek, Italian bonds, the Uk will get out. Once they are forced to eat 10-15 billion after Greece defaults for real, they will be gone.

    PS. 1001 POSTS FOR ME!!! heh
    Originally from Sochi, Russia.

  11. #41
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    cyppok...

    Interactive chart: EU expenditure and revenue - Financial Programming and Budget

    Time and public outcry?

    So, up until now it was OK?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    You do realize that the costs (real and imagined) also apply to any country like Switzerland? Something that has been explained roughly five times already in this thread alone.
    Why does it cost less to trade with the EU from outside? China does so very profitably.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    all of the EU spendings is matter of public record and ready at your disposal. (I refer you to Kato's post. A source which I have used & posted several times)
    In that the case why haven't the auditors signed off the accounts for 18 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    Much of this would affect the UK even if they were not in the EU. Just like Iceland ( a non-eu-country) default did.
    Is Iceland doing better or worse than Greece?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    Nobody here said that. Ever. What I did say was that you misunderstood and misused the term “the Communities”, as well as rejected the claim that the growing political union was sneaked on the UK (and supplying sources and citations for both).
    If it was not done by subterfuge why did they say that Lisbon wasn't the Constitution? They claimed it was something else entirely but Lisbon was merely the Constitution in different legal clothes: Ones that didn't the allow the French and Dutch to have a vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    You keep trumping the same horn, but fail to come up any real melody. Until you do I simply refer you to my old posts.
    Are you saying that the EU today is no different from the EEC of 1975 or are you just against anyone voting on this issue?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    The EU is not a supranational state, and quite a bit away from it. It is on the other hand a supranational organization. Which is something different.
    So it's like the IMF only it wants the power to raise new taxes in Greece? "The Troika will have power to raise taxes automatically. There must be new laws to make it easier to fire workers and adjust the minumum wage." Germany rattled as taxpayer losses loom in Greece - Telegraph Where Ambrose quotes Spiegel Seriously you have to be democratic to enter the EU where unelected officials can then raise taxes on you? The irony...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    Of course it is not a “perfect free market” in the sense of of the economic concept, because that does not exist, anywhere (Somalia might be close though). Apart from that it is still pretty close. Guess how Germany dominated the European markets (even before the €)
    Germany has greatly benefited from the single currency as the value of the euro is set to reflect the German economy; it is in fact over valued as Germany profits from the Hartz lV reforms went through in Germany the ECB actually did print more money. This helped soothe the pain in Germany but created the credit boom in the southern economies, which could then buy the low unit cost German produce on credit - of course nobody said anything at the time because it benefited all. The current German economy requires the credit line to the southern european countries to remain open - otherwise Germany too will collapse. Granted they are now having to pass reforms themselves to be 'more German - like' but why won't the ECB now inflate the problem away as it did in 2004-5? The system is beyond the save point; Greece can never pay the money back it owes for French submarines - strange how Greece is Germany's single largest military export market...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    Key word here: Propose. They can not enact it on their own. That still requires the European Parliament, which actually is elected.
    Lol we know how that works... You just keep getting asked the same thing or the same thing in different clothes until you say "yes". Then you can never repeal it again. Democracy a l'USSR.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    So you do believe that the EU created the financial crisis on purpose to gain more power? Seriously?
    If it wasn't planned then surely they are guilty of gross incompetence? When Greece and Spain both have youth unemployment over 50% don't you think that something is arguably not working and the people who are running the show and got us there might need replacing? If only we could.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    You do realize that the costs (real and imagined) also apply to any country like Switzerland? Something that has been explained roughly five times already in this thread alone.
    Why does it cost less to trade with the EU from outside? China does so very profitably.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    all of the EU spendings is matter of public record and ready at your disposal. (I refer you to Kato's post. A source which I have used & posted several times)
    In that the case why haven't the auditors signed off the accounts for 18 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    Much of this would affect the UK even if they were not in the EU. Just like Iceland ( a non-eu-country) default did.
    Is Iceland doing better or worse than Greece?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    Nobody here said that. Ever. What I did say was that you misunderstood and misused the term “the Communities”, as well as rejected the claim that the growing political union was sneaked on the UK (and supplying sources and citations for both).
    If it was not done by subterfuge why did they say that Lisbon wasn't the Constitution? They claimed it was something else entirely but Lisbon was merely the Constitution in different legal clothes: Ones that didn't the allow the French and Dutch to have a vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    You keep trumping the same horn, but fail to come up any real melody. Until you do I simply refer you to my old posts.
    Are you saying that the EU today is no different from the EEC of 1975 or are you just against anyone voting on this issue?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    The EU is not a supranational state, and quite a bit away from it. It is on the other hand a supranational organization. Which is something different.
    So it's like the IMF only it wants the power to raise new taxes in Greece? "The Troika will have power to raise taxes automatically. There must be new laws to make it easier to fire workers and adjust the minumum wage." Germany rattled as taxpayer losses loom in Greece - Telegraph Where Ambrose quotes Spiegel Seriously you have to be democratic to enter the EU where unelected officials can then raise taxes on you? The irony...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    Of course it is not a “perfect free market” in the sense of of the economic concept, because that does not exist, anywhere (Somalia might be close though). Apart from that it is still pretty close. Guess how Germany dominated the European markets (even before the €)
    Germany has greatly benefited from the single currency as the value of the euro is set to reflect the German economy; it is in fact over valued as Germany profits from the Hartz lV reforms went through in Germany the ECB actually did print more money. This helped soothe the pain in Germany but created the credit boom in the southern economies, which could then buy the low unit cost German produce on credit - of course nobody said anything at the time because it benefited all. The current German economy requires the credit line to the southern european countries to remain open - otherwise Germany too will collapse. Granted they are now having to pass reforms themselves to be 'more German - like' but why won't the ECB now inflate the problem away as it did in 2004-5? The system is beyond the save point; Greece can never pay the money back it owes for French submarines - strange how Greece is Germany's single largest military export market...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    Key word here: Propose. They can not enact it on their own. That still requires the European Parliament, which actually is elected.
    Lol we know how that works... You just keep getting asked the same thing or the same thing in different clothes until you say "yes". Then you can never repeal it again. Democracy a l'USSR.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
    So you do believe that the EU created the financial crisis on purpose to gain more power? Seriously?
    If it wasn't planned then surely they are guilty of gross incompetence? When Greece and Spain both have youth unemployment over 50% don't you think that something is arguably not working and the people who are running the show and got us there might need replacing? If only we could.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Why does it cost less to trade with the EU from outside? China does so very profitably.
    They do it everywhere. I wonder what would be the UK bargaining powere wrt China if UK is alone.

    In that the case why haven't the auditors signed off the accounts for 18 years?
    Why UK was silent for 18 years about that?

    Is Iceland doing better or worse than Greece?
    Ask UK and Dutch bankers.

    Also, Greeks says they want to STAY in. Why?

    If it was not done by subterfuge why did they say that Lisbon wasn't the Constitution? They claimed it was something else entirely but Lisbon was merely the Constitution in different legal clothes: Ones that didn't the allow the French and Dutch to have a vote.


    Are you saying that the EU today is no different from the EEC of 1975 or are you just against anyone voting on this issue?
    UK is in and wants out, while back then it was in and wanted in

    So it's like the IMF only it wants the power to raise new taxes in Greece? "The Troika will have power to raise taxes automatically. There must be new laws to make it easier to fire workers and adjust the minumum wage." Germany rattled as taxpayer losses loom in Greece - Telegraph Where Ambrose quotes Spiegel Seriously you have to be democratic to enter the EU where unelected officials can then raise taxes on you? The irony...
    The Greeks can pay their debts and get over this. Why don't they?

    Germany has greatly benefited from the single currency as the value of the euro is set to reflect the German economy; it is in fact over valued as Germany profits from the Hartz lV reforms went through in Germany the ECB actually did print more money. This helped soothe the pain in Germany but created the credit boom in the southern economies, which could then buy the low unit cost German produce on credit - of course nobody said anything at the time because it benefited all. The current German economy requires the credit line to the southern european countries to remain open - otherwise Germany too will collapse. Granted they are now having to pass reforms themselves to be 'more German - like' but why won't the ECB now inflate the problem away as it did in 2004-5? The system is beyond the save point; Greece can never pay the money back it owes for French submarines - strange how Greece is Germany's single largest military export market...
    When mentioning Germany, deficit and everything about it, why nobody mentiones Mr. Schröder?


    Lol we know how that works... You just keep getting asked the same thing or the same thing in different clothes until you say "yes". Then you can never repeal it again. Democracy a l'USSR.
    You can say "no" forever.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  15. #45
    Administrator Tarek Morgen's Avatar
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    Why does it cost less to trade with the EU from outside? China does so very profitably.
    It does not cost less to trade with the EU from the outside. It does often cost less cost less to PRODUCE outside Europe. If you want to have Chinese production costs, than you also get Chinese living standards. I for myself prefer ours (in which we still manage to produce and sell quite successful)

    In that the case why haven't the auditors signed off the accounts for 18 years?
    Because that is another one of your myth. EU spending is signed of every year by the ECA. What the ECA does infact critise (and “not sign off”) is how the member states use the money they get via the EU.

    Budget Control

    Is Iceland doing better or worse than Greece?
    Iceland has an actual economy. Something Greece did not have even before they joined the EU. Also..not related the point that was made.

    If it was not done by subterfuge why did they say that Lisbon wasn't the Constitution? They claimed it was something else entirely but Lisbon was merely the Constitution in different legal clothes: Ones that didn't the allow the French and Dutch to have a vote.
    Was the content of the treaty secret? (Or of the treaties before it). Were governments, elected by their people, not able to reject it, if they had wanted?

    Are you saying that the EU today is no different from the EEC of 1975 or are you just against anyone voting on this issue?
    Never said that. If you want to see what I actually said you are free to go back and read my comments.

    So it's like the IMF only it wants the power to raise new taxes in Greece? "The Troika will have power to raise taxes automatically. There must be new laws to make it easier to fire workers and adjust the minumum wage." Germany rattled as taxpayer losses loom in Greece - Telegraph Where Ambrose quotes Spiegel Seriously you have to be democratic to enter the EU where unelected officials can then raise taxes on you? The irony...
    “"The Troika will have power to raise taxes automatically. “ Yeah..no. All there is a report which include a suggestion that if Greece fails certain reforms, the difference is automatically made up with taxes. And even that will most likely never see the light of the day.

    Germany has greatly benefited from the single currency as the value of the euro is set to reflect the German economy; it is in fact over valued as Germany profits from the Hartz lV reforms went through in Germany the ECB actually did print more money. This helped soothe the pain in Germany but created the credit boom in the southern economies, which could then buy the low unit cost German produce on credit - of course nobody said anything at the time because it benefited all. The current German economy requires the credit line to the southern european countries to remain open - otherwise Germany too will collapse. Granted they are now having to pass reforms themselves to be 'more German - like' but why won't the ECB now inflate the problem away as it did in 2004-5? The system is beyond the save point; Greece can never pay the money back it owes for French submarines - strange how Greece is Germany's single largest military export market...
    During 2004/05 the interest rates of the ECB were twice as high...

    Lol we know how that works... You just keep getting asked the same thing or the same thing in different clothes until you say "yes". Then you can never repeal it again. Democracy a l'USSR.
    That is why the UK & Denmark have adopted the €, and Norway is in the EU.

    If it wasn't planned then surely they are guilty of gross incompetence? When Greece and Spain both have youth unemployment over 50% don't you think that something is arguably not working and the people who are running the show and got us there might need replacing? If only we could.
    I want a yes or no answer. Do you believe that this crisis was created by the EU to gain more power?

    On second though...don't bother. I have too much time in the last few days to play your personal fact checker. Pretty much every time you came up with some “fact”, “numbers” or “evidence” I proofed them wrong. You are willing to buy any anti-eu-rumor without a moment hesitations and when confronted to the facts you jump to the next. You have no facts, numbers or even logic to support your statements. All you have is rage, and that does not make for a very compelling argument. I am done for now. Though if you ever are interested in actual discussion in the future..please spend at least 2 minutes fact checking your claims before posting them. It will save everybody a lot of time and nerves.

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