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  • #16
    Originally posted by junoth1001 View Post
    The reason why British forces address Warrant Officers 'Sir' stems from the days of Charles the first, when there used to be a rank called Sargent Major General, which was of General officer status and whose duties were similar to the modern day RSM.

    In addition, Warrant Officers are "Warranted" by the Monarch and receive a a 'Royal Warrant'.

    Furthermore, in everyday langauge, for centuries, it was polite to address others as 'Sir', even if they were your inferiors. Again Monarchs would do the same.
    And in the US Military our warrant officers are also called Sir/
    Ma'am...or Chief/Gunner/Bos'n. However our senior noncommissioned officers are not warrant officers. Warrant officers are a rank between sergeant major/master CPO or Chief MSG and a 2d lieutenant. They are technicians. Senior NCOs are just that...NCOs.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
      And in the US Military our warrant officers are also called Sir/
      Ma'am...or Chief/Gunner/Bos'n. However our senior noncommissioned officers are not warrant officers. Warrant officers are a rank between sergeant major/master CPO or Chief MSG and a 2d lieutenant. They are technicians. Senior NCOs are just that...NCOs.

      In the British Army, the RSM/WO Class 1 is the highest Non-commissioned rank. The Royal Navy had Warrant Engineers, who were allowed to live as a commisioned officer.

      however, I have to admit that the American rank system is somewhat weird. Back in the late 1970s when I used to fly up to Keflavik with the Nimrods, we were told that we were the equivalent of E7s!

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      • #18
        Originally posted by junoth1001 View Post
        In the British Army, the RSM/WO Class 1 is the highest Non-commissioned rank. The Royal Navy had Warrant Engineers, who were allowed to live as a commisioned officer.

        however, I have to admit that the American rank system is somewhat weird. Back in the late 1970s when I used to fly up to Keflavik with the Nimrods, we were told that we were the equivalent of E7s!
        It has worked for us since 1634!
        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
        Mark Twain

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
          It has worked for us since 1634!
          1634...!?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
            It has worked for us since 1634!
            i doubt if the American armed forces have been in existense since 1634!

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            • #21
              The oldest of America's armed forces branches, the National Guard, claims its origins from the organization of the first militia regiments in Massachusetts Bay Colony on December 16, 1636 (although there were organized militia companies dating from 1607). So, yes, it started working almost that far back, although as a militia under the British system as it existed at the time. The Regular Army traces its origins from the authorization of ten Maryland, Virginia, and Pennsylvania rifle companies by the Continental Congress on June 14, 1775, although those units themselves also merged their lineage eventually with the National Guard.

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              • #22
                For the record, during my 23 year career as an Infantry NCO, I very rarely came across officers that I really thought of as "curs"; I guess that I was lucky in that I met many more truly excellent leaders, and helped guide a number of great lieutenents into becoming better developed officers (and sent a number of my best enlisted soldiers off to OCS, all of whom I was delighted to call "sir" later, when they outranked me; I don't think they ever forgot where they came from). Most officers were somewhere in the middle, but I do not begrudge them their "sir", and if I was accidently called "sir" myself a few times, I simply laughed it off, with the traditional "I work for a living. Call me Sergeant." I do find it amusing that now, when I return to my last unit to give them classes or to just "visit", I still call my former young captains and majors "sir", and everybody still calls me Sergeant and seems to forget that I'm a retired guy who shows up in jeans because I just can't entirely let it go.


                But as for "curs", I've probably seen more outright incompetent NCO's than officers out there, and a fair number of CSM's who have seemed to lose touch with reality. Bridging the gap and keep a strong, but separate, working relationship between the commissioned and non-commissioned takes work, and many on the enlisted side prefer to treat officers (especially non-prior service lieutenants) with undeserved scorn, instead of using tact and leadership to guide them into the captains and colonels we need them to become.

                (Jumping off my soapbox now!)

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by junoth1001 View Post
                  i doubt if the American armed forces have been in existense since 1634!
                  There were armed forces there even before the independence.

                  However, I'd be eager to learn why this particular date?
                  No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                  To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                    There were armed forces there even before the independence.

                    However, I'd be eager to learn why this particular date?

                    Sorry, off by 2 years. Should be 1636. In December of that year the General Court of the Massachussets Bay Colony formally established the North, South and East Militia Regiments. The direct lineal descendants in an unbroken line are the 101 Engineers, 101 Field Artillery and the 181 & 182 Infantry of the Massachussets Army National Guard. All three units have fought in all of America's wars since 1636 (except Viet Nam). Their designations may have changed but they are the oldest units in the Army.

                    And we actually established the NCO not as warrant officer very early on.
                    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                    Mark Twain

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                      Sorry, off by 2 years. Should be 1636. In December of that year the General Court of the Massachussets Bay Colony formally established the North, South and East Militia Regiments. The direct lineal descendants in an unbroken line are the 101 Engineers, 101 Field Artillery and the 181 & 182 Infantry of the Massachussets Army National Guard. All three units have fought in all of America's wars since 1636 (except Viet Nam). Their designations may have changed but they are the oldest units in the Army.

                      And we actually established the NCO not as warrant officer very early on.

                      A Warrant Officer does not hold a Commison and is therefore a NCO. However, i have noticed in American units where "Warrant Officers" messed with Commisioned Officers rather than with fellow NCOs.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by junoth1001 View Post
                        A Warrant Officer does not hold a Commison and is therefore a NCO. However, i have noticed in American units where "Warrant Officers" messed with Commisioned Officers rather than with fellow NCOs.
                        Look at post #16.

                        In our military warrant officers ARE officers, not enlisted men.

                        And all grades of sergeant/petty officer are enlisted personnel.
                        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                        Mark Twain

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Exactly. And warrant officers in grades CW2 and above (up to CW5) actually are commissioned in our system, but still hold their special, separate classification. In a British context I would equate them more with the "wardroom" warrant officers of the Royal Navy in the age of sail (Sailing Masters, pursers, surgeons, and chaplains) than with the British Army RSMs and Conductors.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                            Look at post #16.

                            In our military warrant officers ARE officers, not enlisted men.

                            And all grades of sergeant/petty officer are enlisted personnel.
                            The British Warrant Officers of the Army, RAF and Fleet Chief Petty officers are all 'enlisted'

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by junoth1001 View Post
                              The British Warrant Officers of the Army, RAF and Fleet Chief Petty officers are all 'enlisted'
                              I realize that (which is why in Iceland you were considered an E-7). Our warrant officers are not NCOs/enlisted (other ranks).
                              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                              Mark Twain

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                                I realize that (which is why in Iceland you were considered an E-7). Our warrant officers are not NCOs/enlisted (other ranks).
                                It might have something to do with being RAF Sgts.

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