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Thread: Camp Bastion attacked

  1. #31
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    I obviously haven't forgot them, and mourn their loss.

    I'm just a bit baffled at the tone in this thread, as if the attack is some devastating victory for the Taliban. Maybe we should pack it all up and go home right now.

    Actually that's not a bad notion, but not in response to a successful enemy attack. I know people here are fully aware that there are going to be enemy victories in any protracted conflict. Are we supposed to bat 1.000 in this?

    If U.S. Air Power had lost a 1/2 dozen jets over a few years to old Stingers, would the emotional impact be different? If so, how? We've lost six jets. Let's bury our dead, analyze how we could do better, replace the hardware, and press on.

  2. #32
    In Memoriam/Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chogy View Post
    I obviously haven't forgot them, and mourn their loss.

    I'm just a bit baffled at the tone in this thread, as if the attack is some devastating victory for the Taliban. Maybe we should pack it all up and go home right now.

    Actually that's not a bad notion, but not in response to a successful enemy attack. I know people here are fully aware that there are going to be enemy victories in any protracted conflict. Are we supposed to bat 1.000 in this?

    If U.S. Air Power had lost a 1/2 dozen jets over a few years to old Stingers, would the emotional impact be different? If so, how? We've lost six jets. Let's bury our dead, analyze how we could do better, replace the hardware, and press on.
    I agree.
    If the jets had been destroyed in aerial combat - our human losses could have been even worse. The enemy pulled off a successful attack - in a war, that happens. Anyone who imagines war as a one sided thing is thinking of a massacre not a war.
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  3. #33
    Senior Contributor Agnostic Muslim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    And that's the crux of the problem with you AM; the day you begin to realize that the 'extremists' are in fact the Taliban sympathizers sitting inside Rawalpindi and Islamabad, and not the pragmatic Pakistanis who question the actions of their own government, that is when you will realize where the rest of us are coming from. Until than, you will continue to be nothing more than a Pak government/army mouthpiece, constantly attempting to deflect blame away from and shield your sorry ass leaders.
    Extremists, whether they are liberals or conservatives, are extremists - the problem with many in the West and India is that they view liberal extremists and sellouts in countries like Pakistan as 'pragmatic' because these people promote a POV that is music to the ears of the West and Indians.

    The 'Chalabis of the world', as nice as their snake oil sales pitch of 'invade and be welcomed by XYZ constituency' sounds to Western ears, are just that, snake oil sales men, and yet, even after the fiascos of Afghanistan and Iraq, people like Zraver continue to cling to fantasies of the US 'exploiting internal Pakistani fissures' and 'installing a successful pro-American transitional government'.
    Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 20 Sep 12, at 18:03.
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  4. #34
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    Extremists, whether they are liberals or conservatives, are extremists - the problem with many in the West and India is that they view liberal extremists and sellouts in countries like Pakistan as 'pragmatic' because these people promote a POV that is music to the ears of the West and Indians.

    The 'Chalabis of the world', as nice as their snake oil sales pitch of 'invade and be welcomed by XYZ constituency' sounds to Western ears, are just that, snake oil sales men, and yet, even after the fiascos of Afghanistan and Iraq, people like Zraver continue to cling to fantasies of the US 'exploiting internal Pakistani fissures' and 'installing a successful pro-American transitional government'.
    In that case, there will be no peace between Pakistan and the west.

    Do you think muslims with a sense of humor are "liberal extremists?"

    Further more, can you tell me what a "conservative extremist" is in your view?
    Last edited by gunnut; 20 Sep 12, at 20:34.
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  5. #35
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    Extremists, whether they are liberals or conservatives, are extremists - the problem with many in the West and India is that they view liberal extremists and sellouts in countries like Pakistan as 'pragmatic' because these people promote a POV that is music to the ears of the West and Indians.
    AM, it doesn't really count when you consider any Pakistani criticizing the Pak army as a "liberal extremist" or a "sell out".

    Who exactly are these "liberal extremists" and "sell outs" you are inferring to? Nadeem Paracha? Najam Sethi? Hassan Nissar? Ayesha Siddiqa? Farhat Taj? Tarek Fatah? Pervez Hoodboy? Tariq Ali? Asim Sajjad? I could go on and on. If your answer is yes to these names, than let me assure you; these chaps you consider to be "liberal extremists" and "sell outs", are not all liberals, and they come from different ends of the political spectrum! What they have in common is their pragmatism and their ability to see and call out things the way they are.

    It is indeed very ironical that you even mention the term "liberal extremist", because let me assure you, maybe with the exception of Nadeem Paracha, most of the above mentioned would also be called "conservatives" in any other part of the world! And if they seem like "liberal extremists" to you, than I can't imagine what a normal centrist is in Pakistan. No doubt, an unquestioned supporter of the Pak army.

    The 'Chalabis of the world', as nice as their snake oil sales pitch of 'invade and be welcomed by XYZ constituency' sounds to Western ears, are just that, snake oil sales men, and yet, even after the fiascos of Afghanistan and Iraq, people like Zraver continue to cling to fantasies of the US 'exploiting internal Pakistani fissures' and 'installing a successful pro-American transitional government'.
    You are jumping the gun from critics of Pak army to Baloch and Sindhi separatists. Totally unrelated.
    Last edited by Tronic; 20 Sep 12, at 23:16.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    The destroyed aircraft represent 15% of the close air support and ca 30% of the tactical/offensive electronic warfare capacity in the entire theater.
    What is the Electronic Warfare Harrier that was destroyed?

    I'm confused, are you saying that six Harriers are 15% of the close air support in the theater?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    Yet we don't hear the Western media, nor the Pakistani liberal extremists, going hysterical about 'terrorists taking control of NATO nukes'.
    You need to read up on the current U.S. policy on nukes. Plus who would be firing those nukes? The Harriers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Six Coalition AV-8B Harrier jets were destroyed and two were significantly damaged.
    It's pretty significant to declare a jet destroyed. Congress authorizes the purchase of a set number of jets. The DOD will always attempt to salvage a piece of the air frame to rebuild. It is easier to fund the "repair" of a jet, then get authorization to build a new one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    Six jets destroyed, two jets damaged beyond repair, two refueling stations destroyed - the amount of damage inflicted on NATO in the Taliban attack on Camp Bastion completely dwarfs the damage inflicted in the Mehran and Kamra base attacks, COMBINED!

    Yet we don't hear the Western media, nor the Pakistani liberal extremists, going hysterical about 'terrorists taking control of NATO nukes'.
    Uh, maybe because there are no NATO nukes within a thousand miles of Afghanistan?

    The NATO airbase in Afghanistan is a forward base in what is, for all practical purposes, a war zone. Can't compare that to Kamra and Mehran. If Ramstein or Andrews is successfully attacked, then we'll worry about "NATO nukes".

  8. #38
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    The US is already blaming Pakistan for the Camp Bastion attack.

    US believes Pakistan behind Camp Bastion attack | PKKH.tv
    But the raid may be more significant because of the skill and planning it required — skill and planning far beyond the reach of most of the guerilla bands that are loosely termed the Taliban. Even the most experienced and best funded of our opponents in Afghanistan, such as the Pakistani-sponsored Haqqani network, would presumably have great difficulty in pulling off such an operation without considerable assistance.

    It seems likely that the special forces of a professional army planned the raid, and trained, advised, and led the raiders — that is if they did not actually take part in it. Those special forces would, of course, be those of Pakistan....

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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    If Ramstein or Andrews is successfully attacked, then we'll worry about "NATO nukes".
    The Red Army Faction managed a VBIED explosion at Ramstein in 1981. Two weeks later they tried to assassinate COMUSAREUR with RPGs, ten months later a RAF sniper camped outside Nuclear Storage Site NATO-23 and took potshots at the guards, killing one and wounding two...

  10. #40
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree View Post
    The US is already blaming Pakistan for the Camp Bastion attack.

    US believes Pakistan behind Camp Bastion attack | PKKH.tv
    LT, that's only speculation by certain columnists jumping the gun.
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  11. #41
    Military Professional Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    Extremists, whether they are liberals or conservatives, are extremists - the problem with many in the West and India is that they view liberal extremists and sellouts in countries like Pakistan as 'pragmatic' because these people promote a POV that is music to the ears of the West and Indians.

    The 'Chalabis of the world', as nice as their snake oil sales pitch of 'invade and be welcomed by XYZ constituency' sounds to Western ears, are just that, snake oil sales men, and yet, even after the fiascos of Afghanistan and Iraq, people like Zraver continue to cling to fantasies of the US 'exploiting internal Pakistani fissures' and 'installing a successful pro-American transitional government'.
    AM,

    There is nothing intrinsically wrong with Pakistan as I see it.

    The core philosophy that prevails in Pakistan is what is causing the problems; the core philosophy being Religion dictating and permeating every policy or action of Pakistan.

    In a Muslim world that would be ideal, but then in the global context, where one has to interact with countries not Islamic, that is where the conflicts arise.

    Take any international equation of Pakistan, be it the West, India or even China.

    Everywhere the fundamentalists of Pakistan is in conflict and the Govt cannot do anything that encourages an even handed dialogue to solve issues, because behind every effort of the Pakistan Govt, the fundamentalists are calling the tune!

    Even China, which I believe has a relation with China which is 'higher than the mountains and deeper than the seas' to use one of the favourite quotes that is oft seen, is peeved with the fundamentalists influence in Xinjaing.

    Therefore, unless Pakistan can shake off the fundamentalist grip over Pakistan's existence in the comity of Nations, I see no hope.

    I would like to add, that because of the unfortunate state that is currently symbolising Pakistan, there are many people in Pakistan, who are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, as I think Tronic mentioned, who are becoming pragmatic and hence 'liberal'.

    What could be a 'Conservative' in Pakistan?

    A person sold wholly to Religion and sees the situation with religious blinkers on?

    I may have not understood Pakistan, but maybe you could help me along the way.


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  12. #42
    Military Professional Ray's Avatar
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    Camp Bastion is said to house 28,000 personnel.

    I would be surprised it the security for the Camp would have been not well coordinated.

    I am sure there would have been some ambushes and protective patrols out since this is a major base.

    Therefore, it sure is interesting how the raid party sneaked through and did the devastation.

    Lt Col Christopher Raible, commanding officer of the VMA-211 squadron is said to have been killed!

    I wonder if rag tag terrorists who could mount this ops, since this raid has been too professionally executed, if one goes by the account.

    I wouldn't be surprised if some professional soldiers, who are conversant with Spec Ops, were involved in the ops too!
    Last edited by Ray; 21 Sep 12, at 10:13.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Camp Bastion is said to house 28,000 personnel.

    I would be surprised it the security for the Camp would have been not well coordinated.

    I am sure there would have been some ambushes and protective patrols out since this is a major base.

    Therefore, it sure is interesting how the raid party sneaked through and did the devastation.
    The answer is in the OP

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
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  15. #45
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    Not sure if I can agree with the decision because the generals were too far high up to control the circumstances on the ground. If it is a command failure, then General Amos should also censure himself and force himself into early retirement. Another case of throwing somebody under the bus so heads can be served on a platter.

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