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  • Marine Corp gets ready to dump the 105?

    Some time ago I recollect asking for opinions about whether the 105mm howitzer still had a role to play in modern Western armies. (For some reason I can't find the thread at the moment). Anyhow the view of many WAB members with military experience was that it still had a role to play. Then I read this....

    "The U.S. Marine Corps sees the 120mm Expeditionary Fire Support System (EFSS) mortar as the 3rd leg of its expeditionary fire support triad. EFSS will be the short-range but easily transportable counterpart to the reduced-weight M777 155mm towed howitzer, and the truck-mounted M142 HIMARS rocket system." This quote comes from the Defense Industry Daily and could simply be taken as a push piece by the manufacturer for the EFSS. However I then read a recent article by a Marine Corp General pronouncing the same view. The Corp was going to go with three artillery systems including the EFSS using a new generation of extended range and guided 120mm rounds and drop any other systems.

    So have I got this right and are the Marines dumping the 105 from their LOE and does this mean other will follow in due course?
    If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

  • #2
    The USMC dumped the 105 howitzer back in 1995.

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    • #3
      Thanks GG - shows you how out of date I am. Do you think the US Army will follow suit eventually?
      If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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      • #4
        The Canadian Forces have already pushed the 105s to the reserves.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Monash View Post
          Do you think the US Army will follow suit eventually?
          Not likely, the M119 was somewhat recently upgraded and it's too valuable for the airborne, air assault and light infantry divisions...especially when something as relatively plentiful as the Blackhawk can sling-load it around.

          If Wiki is to be believed: "The army has renewed contracts for the M119 to be produced by the Rock Island Arsenal-Joint Manufacturing & Technology Center (RIA-JMTC) at Rock Island, Illinois into the year 2013."
          “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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          • #6
            What's the role of M777 if M119 already fill the air mobile niche? Or is it there to supplement 105s with for extra oomph?
            All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
            -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Triple C View Post
              What's the role of M777 if M119 already fill the air mobile niche? Or is it there to supplement 105s with for extra oomph?
              It was suppose to fill the light role. That is why the Corps did not buy into the M119 program. "Just as mobile, with a bigger punch"

              But reading articles in the Fires journal it fails miserably at that job.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                It was suppose to fill the light role. That is why the Corps did not buy into the M119 program. "Just as mobile, with a bigger punch"

                But reading articles in the Fires journal it fails miserably at that job.
                Even with the titanium (read: lighter) parts, it's still over twice as heavy as the M119; which means you need either a CH-47 or a -53 to move it. It may have "twice the punch", but it's also got twice the weight.
                "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                  It was suppose to fill the light role. That is why the Corps did not buy into the M119 program. "Just as mobile, with a bigger punch"

                  But reading articles in the Fires journal it fails miserably at that job.
                  How so? Was it the logistical burden?
                  All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                  -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What Stich says and remember various other logisitical impacts.

                    1) In the US Army the prime mover and ammo resupply vehicle for the M777 is the 5 ton cargo truck. For the M119 its a HMMWV.

                    2) Ammo weight and cube. I can carry 3 times the ammo by weight and cube for 105mm versus 155mm.

                    3) Lighter weight at higher altitudes means less fuel to airlift...also lets me carry more crew, ammo per load to higher elevations.
                    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                    Mark Twain

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                    • #11
                      "...lets me carry more crew, ammo per load to higher elevations."

                      Hotter climes too. Air density decreases in hot temps. With that you lose lift.

                      Trade offs to everything. We lose standoff with the 105mm. For Afghanistan that means you must locate guns closer to their likely target areas. In Konar, for instance, there are only so many positions that provide viable gun locations for even a platoon (much less a battery). Especially up in tight valleys like the Korengal. Now it requires defensibility and aerial resupply for both the guns, crews and, likely, base defense.

                      Pretty soon you're being eaten alive by supporting the support.
                      "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                      "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by S2 View Post
                        "...lets me carry more crew, ammo per load to higher elevations."

                        Hotter climes too. Air density decreases in hot temps. With that you lose lift.

                        Trade offs to everything. We lose standoff with the 105mm. For Afghanistan that means you must locate guns closer to their likely target areas. In Konar, for instance, there are only so many positions that provide viable gun locations for even a platoon (much less a battery). Especially up in tight valleys like the Korengal. Now it requires defensibility and aerial resupply for both the guns, crews and, likely, base defense.

                        Pretty soon you're being eaten alive by supporting the support.
                        My understanding is that the only helicopter in service that can handle an M777 comfortably in the Hindu Kush is the Russian Mi-17; even the CH-47F isn't much good over 5,000m with a serious load.
                        "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                          1) In the US Army the prime mover and ammo resupply vehicle for the M777 is the 5 ton cargo truck. For the M119 its a HMMWV.
                          How many rounds carried in a M119 battery on which vehicles? Asking cuz over here the prime mover for the old 105mm M1A2 was the 5-ton truck, for the 155mm FH70 the 7-ton truck - in either case also carrying about 200 rounds ready ammunition.

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                          • #14
                            Stitch Reply

                            "...even the CH-47F isn't much good over 5,000m with a serious load."

                            Nobody living (or fighting) at that altitude. Treeline peters out at 8,000ft. All the fighting I've seen has been in heavily-forested valleys. My guess is that valley floors are probably in the 1000-1500m range with ridgetops at about 2000m.

                            However, combine that altitude with air temps exceeding 95-100F plus in the summer and you've still got a huge lift issue.
                            "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                            "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                            • #15
                              Steve,

                              No argument with you of proximity of firing line to gun line....METT-TL.

                              That's where the Fires commander has to look to the M777 for longer range of fires to cover the gaps (like I have to tell you!)

                              Buck

                              Kato,

                              I'll get you your answer later.
                              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                              Mark Twain

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