US had tacit consent of Pakistan military for OBL raid, claims book

[Minskaya]

He was killed during the Abbottabad raid after he emerged from the guesthouse firing an AK.

Incidentally, al-Kuwaiti's wife, who was standing directly behind her husband as he emerged from the guesthouse, was killed by the same rounds that killed him.

[Agnostic Muslim]

"Arshad Khan" - a/k/a Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti - was the most trusted bin-Laden courier. He was killed during the Abbottabad raid after he emerged from the guesthouse firing an AK.

He initially attracted the attention of the CIA while in Peshawar and was subsequently followed to Abbottabad. He made a crucial mistake in neglecting to use a "clean" cell phone while contacting a known member of al-Queda. This cell call was intercepted by the NSA. In the conversation, al-Kuwaiti referred to "the tall man". From that moment on, the US intelligence community used all available means - including national assets - to identify the residents of the Abbottabad compound. From satellite imagery, analysts mathematically calculated that a man seen walking within the compound was at least 6'5" tall.

Yes, and the land was sold to a man named 'Arshad Khan' and not to a man named 'Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti' or 'Osama Bin Laden' - pointing out their identities after the fact does not support the argument that Pakistan was aware of them prior to the operation.

[TopHatter]

I can't see how you can play those suspicions down.

Never underestimate the power of denial.

[Agnostic Muslim]

The americans have said Afridi was an important member in the operation. SECSTATE made a statement as well as the house passing a resolution to deduct $30 million out of your aid for each year he has to serve.

All this just for a foreigner ?

So i'd have expected him to be honoured maybe in line for a corresponding award and not detained. Afridi was caught trying to leave at the Afghan border in Sept last year. He'd been languishing in a prison until his tribal court hearing in May this year.

Why should Pakistan honor a man who acted in concert with a foreign intelligence agency without Pakistani authorization, and allegedly provided some degree of support to certain militant groups?

Good, but AFAIK Afridi has not been charged with treason yet. They got him on something else, had posted the tribal courts ruling from DAWN in the afridi thread earlier. Not a lot of details just what some intelligence people said.

At the time the recommendation had been made that he be charged with treason. That was what made the news and mislead people into thinking he had actually been charged with treason, but it was incorrect. Nevertheless, attempting to charge him with treason is in itself incriminating given what the americans have said.

Going on the assumption that OBL is an enemy(?) of Pakistan who is member of the GWOT coaltion.

He's lucky he has not been charged with treason yet, because that would mean a death sentence, which he deserves for putting the lives of many Pakistanis in danger, both through his fabricated polio campaign and through the risks entailed in a covert military operation inside Pakistani territory that could have backfired and resulted in many innocent civilians and security forces dying.

You have anything confirmed to support this ? because i've come to believe this was largely an american op.

There are statements from US officials that Pakistan provided initial intelligence that the US developed - this point was reiterated in recent interview with ISI officials in the NYT (though I will have to verify the source).

Not referring to the 300 odd perps you helped apprehend but OBL specifically.

All of that, especially the capture of KSM and the intelligence gleaned from him, helped develop the complete intelligence picture.

its a white wash.

Anybody can make up unconfirmed accounts about anything isn't it.

Yes, just like the claims that Pakistani institutions were complicit despite no evidence supporting said claims.

Had he been found at the border you'd have a better chance. But not in Abbotabad.

Only from a PR perspective - looking at this rationally, he had to be found somewhere and he chose to, cleverly, hide in plain site. His presence in Abbottabad is not evidence of anything except for those looking to scapegoat Pakistan.

I can't see how you can play those suspicions down. Its a PR loss for you.

A PR loss because the US is choosing to turn it into a PR loss.

[Tronic]

Yes, and the land was sold to a man named 'Arshad Khan' and not to a man named 'Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti' or 'Osama Bin Laden' - pointing out their identities after the fact does not support the argument that Pakistan was aware of them prior to the operation.

It's military land and even if we excuse the supposed lack of background checks; AQ didn't dig a hole to hide under, but built a mansion with multiple security walls, no internet connection, no telephone lines, burning their own garbage, and the Pak military thought this to be "normal" activity 800 yards from their main building? Are you kidding me?? And this is supposed to be an army under siege from, to quote you, "Indian, US and Afghan complicity in terrorist attacks in Pakistan"? I'd get suspicious, as Osama's neighbours too have aptly reported they were of the compound. And this is a military base we're talking about, of a military facing continuous attacks on its institutions. I'm sorry but its hard to swallow that the Pak military is that incompetent.

[gunnut]

This to me appears a white wash.

Explain why you went after your citizens that assisted the US in the OBL raid, if all the while you were in cahoots with the US.

Why the trumped up charges against those citizens.

Let me see you convince Pari :)

That's easy. It's a show for the locals. Pak army has to put up this front that it's outraged by the invasion of US special forces while at the same time work with the Americans to get handouts.

[Minskaya]

Yes, and the land was sold to a man named 'Arshad Khan' and not to a man named 'Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti' or 'Osama Bin Laden' - pointing out their identities after the fact does not support the argument that Pakistan was aware of them prior to the operation.

The unpleasant facts remain AM. For years, bin-Laden was ensconced very close to the Pakistani equivalent of West Point. What's more, the environs of Abbottabad are filled with high ranking military officers enjoying retirement. Much like Islamabad, this area should have been saturated with ISI agents protecting the connected and affluent from any number of internal threats. I find it inexplicable that in a military cantonment, an area filled with fresh military cadets and general officer retirees, an immense compound is constructed (differently than neighboring villas) with a camera monitoring the entrance way, yet without any telephone/internet/satellite access, and harboring unsociable residents who take pains to burn their garbage... I find it extremely difficult to believe that this very odd situation somehow failed to attract even one iota of ISI scrutiny.

Either way you look at it - criminal negligence in the least, aiding and abetting at the worst, it was a wise decision to keep the ISI out of the mission loop.

[Pedicabby]

So Binny was there for what, 5 years? All the while he has been burning his garbage right? And his neighbours are all retired generals right? Why would these retired generals complain about the smell of burning rubbish? Even in a 3rd world country like Pakistan I don't see how anyone without big connections can burn trash in the posh part of town for a day much less 5 years.

[TopHatter]

It's military land and even if we excuse the supposed lack of background checks; AQ didn't dig a hole to hide under, but built a mansion with multiple security walls, no internet connection, no telephone lines, burning their own garbage, and the Pak military thought this to be "normal" activity 800 yards from their main building? Are you kidding me?? And this is supposed to be an army under siege from, to quote you, "Indian, US and Afghan complicity in terrorist attacks in Pakistan"? I'd get suspicious, as Osama's neighbours too have aptly reported they were of the compound. And this is a military base we're talking about, of a military facing continuous attacks on its institutions.

The unpleasant facts remain AM. For years, bin-Laden was ensconced very close to the Pakistani equivalent of West Point. What's more, the environs of Abbottabad are filled with high ranking military officers enjoying retirement. Much like Islamabad, this area should have been saturated with ISI agents protecting the connected and affluent from any number of internal threats. I find it inexplicable that in a military cantonment, an area filled with fresh military cadets and general officer retirees, an immense compound is constructed (differently than neighboring villas) with a camera monitoring the entrance way, yet without any telephone/internet/satellite access, and harboring unsociable residents who take pains to burn their garbage... I find it extremely difficult to believe that this very odd situation somehow failed to attract even one iota of ISI scrutiny.

In Agnostic Muslim's world, these are entirely normal events, activities and circumstances. Nothing to see here people, please keep moving.

I'm sorry but its hard to swallow that the Pak military is that incompetent.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that this very odd situation somehow failed to attract even one iota of ISI scrutiny. Either way you look at it - criminal negligence in the least, aiding and abetting at the worst, it was a wise decision to keep the ISI out of the mission loop.

And that too is without a response. Criminal incompetence bordering on mental retardation or complicity by at least one faction of the Pakistani officialdom? There is no third option.

So again I ask: Which is it?

[gunnut]

In Agnostic Muslim's world, these are entirely normal events, activities and circumstances. Nothing to see here people, please keep moving.

And that too is without a response. Criminal incompetence bordering on mental retardation or complicity by at least one faction of the Pakistani officialdom? There is no third option.

So again I ask: Which is it?

*ahem* Please allow me...

Pak army lured Bin Laden to Abbottabad years ago knowing that he was the most wanted man on the planet. "Wanted" means a lot of money. He's a valuable piece of commodity. Pak army sold the plot of land next to their academy as "unexpectedly secure" because who inside Pakistan would mess with the army and who outside Pakistan would suspect it?

Pakistan has been gaming the Americans for US dollars for years. Offering token help for large sum of cash, all at the same time setting up the very people that it helps Americans to destroy. It builds credibility among the Muslim world and gets American military gear plus cash.

Just when the Americans were about to run out of patience with Pak army's unwillingness to do something serious about the terrorists along the Pakistan/Afghanistan border, the Pak army "leaked" information to the Americans on Bin Laden's whereabouts. Pakistan then works out a deal with the US on how best to get rid of Bin Laden. The details include, but not limited to, flight corridor for American raiders into Abbottabad, a fall guy on Pakistan's side for domestic consumption, details on the security arrangement for Bin Laden, orders for the academy to stand down during the raid (we all know how fast a military academy can react to unexpected foreign invasion in the middle of the night), news coverage for domestic consumption, international version from the US that doesn't embarrass the Pak army too much, and of course, payments in cash and gear.

It's all very simple. This entire episode was orchestrated by the brilliant Pakistani intelligence. Nothing is beyond their capabilities.

[TopHatter]

*ahem* Please allow me...

Pak army lured Bin Laden to Abbottabad years ago knowing that he was the most wanted man on the planet. "Wanted" means a lot of money. He's a valuable piece of commodity.

Beautiful

And see my signature...pretty much confirms your theory.
Although "concubine" is rather polite. I was thinking that "wanton whore" would be more appropriate.

[JAD_333]

To explore the question of whether OBL could have lived so close to the Pakistan Military Academy without the army's knowledge, I pulled up a satellite image of the area. The first thing that struck me is that the area is very built up with many large homes. OBL's compound is one of the few that have a large enclosure and a control-tower like top story, but one can find some with these features in lesser size. His compound would certainly have stood out to anyone who drove around the neighborhood. Whether that would have attracted suspicion, I don't know, not being Pakistani or from the area. The homes all look substantial, and I would expect owned by prominent people perhaps above suspicion. The link is below. See what you think.

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...mid=1345775042

This next link is a satellite map of the US Military Academy at West Point. There are fewer homes in the immediate surrounding area. I question I asked myself was, could the number one man on the most wanted list live in one of those homes without the US army knowing it. I live in a rural area with many 3-5-10 acre treed lots with large homes sitting back from the road. It's conceivable to me that a celebrated criminal could hide out in one those homes without US army knowing it, providing he stayed put.


https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&c...ed=0CHcQ_BIwAw

This next link is a satellite photo of the CIA HQ in Langley, Virginia. I know this area well as I lived only a few miles away for 10 years. Many upper scale housing developments, some gated, surround it. Again, the question is, could OBL have lived in one of these up-scale homes without being the CIA learning about it? His getting there in the first place is improbable, but knowing the area, had he occupied a house nearby and stayed put, he could have escaped detection by nosy neighbors.

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&c...ed=0CAkQ_AUoAg

Of course, none of this proves the AoP or ISI did not know of OBL's whereabouts. But it does take something away from the argument that they must have known inasmuch as he was living so close to the Pakistan Military Academy.

[Minskaya]

Of course, none of this proves the AoP or ISI did not know of OBL's whereabouts. But it does take something away from the argument that they must have known inasmuch as he was living so close to the Pakistan Military Academy.

It is indeed ambiguous. However, Abbottabad is not Peshawar or Kurachi. This is a military cantonment established by the British. It is home to the many (especially military/ISI) powerful and elite of Pakistani society. I cannot imagine a failure of the ISI to closely vet anyone moving into this area, especially an unusual lot with no apparent military/government ties. Perhaps to understand this properly, one has to be familiar with the endemic Pakistani paranoia vis-a-vis India.

[Doktor]

Such a concentration of "Do you know who I am?" types would leave any CI officer without much means and energy to do the job properly.

Besides someone gave clearance to all those residents there, nothing to worry about.

[Double Edge]

Why should Pakistan honor a man who acted in concert with a foreign intelligence agency without Pakistani authorization, and allegedly provided some degree of support to certain militant groups?

He's lucky he has not been charged with treason yet, because that would mean a death sentence, which he deserves for putting the lives of many Pakistanis in danger, both through his fabricated polio campaign and through the risks entailed in a covert military operation inside Pakistani territory that could have backfired and resulted in many innocent civilians and security forces dying.

Have already used those arguments and more in the related thread, then i hit a wall with the below :)

Firstly, if I were to say here that NZ has no jet fighter capability I would not be committing treason because it is a matter of public knowledge. It requires that I be revealing a secret.
Secondly, were I to announce that my neighbour down the road wears womens underwear that would not be treason, as it requires the secret be relevant to the state.
Thirdly, if I were to announce he was a known criminal hiding out I would be performing a community service, not committing treason.
It only becomes treason if it were a secret the state knew about and wished to keep secret for its own advantage and by revealing that secret damaged my countries interests.

By finding him guilty they have argued that OBL was a secret asset to the state, and by revealing that secret Afridi has damaged the state.

How do you argue against the above ?

This is why i doubt he will be charged with treason.

That Afridi was charged in the first place only adds to long standing suspicions held. Not only him but other informants were also hunted down.

Yes, just like the claims that Pakistani institutions were complicit despite no evidence supporting said claims.

No its different, the book is about unconfirmed accounts whereas here there is no doubt where OBL was found.

Only from a PR perspective - looking at this rationally, he had to be found somewhere and he chose to, cleverly, hide in plain site. His presence in Abbottabad is not evidence of anything except for those looking to scapegoat Pakistan.

PR matters when dealing with non-paks and the perceptions they have will determine the quality of your relations with them.

A PR loss because the US is choosing to turn it into a PR loss.

Americans have the benefit of the doubt here.