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US had tacit consent of Pakistan military for OBL raid, claims book

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  • #16
    Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
    Confirmation? From the government of Pakistan? Yeah, I'm sure that'll be forthcoming, just as soon as they confirm that Lashkar-e-Taiba's little vacation jaunt to Mumbai in 2008 was supported by the ISI.
    So you admit that there is no confirmation or evidence to support the narrative you are clinging to - its based entirely on speculation around the location of the compound.
    Wake up and smell the coffee. Bin Laden wasn't hiding out in some modest shack somewhere in the Pakistani badlands.
    Either Pakistan's military and internal security apparatus was at least tacitly allowing Bin Laden to reside in Bilal Town or they are so incompetent and bumbling, that they had no clue he was living there for five years, as to defy all reason. So which is it?
    Again, what reason was there for Pakistani security forces to investigate this particular compound out of the thousands of residences in that area?
    First of all, you're comparing the United States to Pakistan? Really? Wow...just wow.
    Could you have picked two countries that were more different?

    Second, if an out-of-place compound on the scale of Bin Laden's suddenly popped up a thousand yards from West Point, I'm fairly certain there'd be some inquires, even of the most idle and casual kind, made about the residents...especially with their clannish secretive nature.

    It's this new thing all the kids are doing called "Basic Counter-Intelligence".
    Since when does 'basic counter-intelligence' involve randomly searching residences withing X distance of a military academy? Assuming this compound was next to West Point, what exactly would have tipped off US authorities that OBL was living there?

    And yes, in terms of the ludicrous suggestions being made that Pakistani should have somehow just known or suspected this particular compound out of the thousands of other surrounding residences does make me compare the US to Pakistan to see how exactly you expected Pakistan to focus on this compound.

    Yeah, such a minor thing, location. Well inside Pakistan, in a major army town, down the street from the Pakistan Military Academy.
    Again, would US authorities randomly search residences without any reason for suspicion within X distance of West Point?
    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
    https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Doktor View Post
      Shit happens everywhere, you can go with the same argument about Spain, UK, France... The thing is what happens afterwards. How the state reacts on such events.
      Sure, shit happens, and it has happened more often in Pakistan given the war in Afghanistan and the internal dynamics of the country and the weakness of many institutions. How States respond depends on many factors, the amount of resources that can be diverted to address the issue being one of them, and obviously those factors mean that the responses of States will vary, widely in some cases, from each other. So I am not really sure what you were getting at ..
      And BTW, in none of the mentioned countries, armed formations don't penetrate their borders.
      And none of those countries have a war going on next door - they are all developed countries as well, with strong institutions for the most part, especially strong law enforcement and domestic intelligence institutions.
      Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
      https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        This to me appears a white wash.

        Explain why you went after your citizens that assisted the US in the OBL raid, if all the while you were in cahoots with the US.

        Why the trumped up charges against those citizens.

        Let me see you convince Pari :)

        FWIW i used this same line of thought soon after the raid as I could not imagine how the CIA could find a needle in a haystack of 180 million. I would find that position untenable in light of developing events in the weeks after.

        It became apparent that the US had over the years constituted their own informer network inside Pakistan. The only Pak contribution in this effort was to look the other way when the raid occurred. Offer token protests after and claim non involvement.

        Naturally, its far worse for the Pak administration to be seen aiding the US in this effort than harbouring OBL. I'd expect strenuous denials from them about the claims in this book.
        The reason for posting the account was to highlight the fact that there are several unconfirmed accounts out there - US officials have themselves stated several times, on the record, that they have no evidence of any Pakistani institutional complicity in sheltering OBL, yet, as can be seen, many people continue to cling to a self-serving narrative that Pakistani institutions were complicit.

        I don't think I have to explain this unconfirmed account any more than those clinging to the 'Pakistan was complict' narrative have to explain theirs.
        Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
        https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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        • #19
          I can only assume by your answers that you're being willfully ignorant about the points that have been brought up.

          What's it like to walk around with blinders over your eyes?
          “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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          • #20
            Just want to point out the Elephant, AM's source claims an ISI colonel gave the US the location.... ie the ISI knew the location and kept it secret for some time. Given the fact the property was carved from the military academy it seems likely they knew for FIVE YEARS or more since they built the damn compound for him.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
              I can only assume by your answers that you're being willfully ignorant about the points that have been brought up.

              What's it like to walk around with blinders over your eyes?
              TH,

              Correct me if I am wrong, but the only point that has been brought up to support the allegation of Pakistani institutional complicity is speculative and based on the location of the compound.

              Why am I the one with 'blinkers on' when you, as far as I can tell, are basing your entire argument on that one speculative point above?
              Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
              https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                Just want to point out the Elephant, AM's source claims an ISI colonel gave the US the location.... ie the ISI knew the location and kept it secret for some time. Given the fact the property was carved from the military academy it seems likely they knew for FIVE YEARS or more since they built the damn compound for him.
                Or, it took that long for the ISI to track OBL down. As I have already pointed out, that compound is not the only residence in that area and certainly not the oldest, which means that sales of military real estate to civilians was common practice. The property was also sold to an individual named 'Arshad Khan' and not 'Osama Bin Laden'.
                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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                • #23
                  Then why they did not arrest him?
                  No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                  To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                    US officials have themselves stated several times, on the record, that they have no evidence of any Pakistani institutional complicity in sheltering OBL,
                    True, as yet, there is no clinching evidence here, its circumstantial.

                    Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                    yet, as can be seen, many people continue to cling to a self-serving narrative that Pakistani institutions were complicit.
                    Because prima facie thats the way it looks. Guillty by association.

                    Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                    I don't think I have to explain this unconfirmed account any more than those clinging to the 'Pakistan was complict' narrative have to explain theirs.
                    Hang on a minute.

                    My reply was to counter the book's claim that the Paks were involved or complicit in the apprehending of OBL. To which i've posed a challenge (Pari's actually) which you've not answered.

                    It would seem you want to believe Pakistan assisted in capturing OBL and therefore are not complicit in harbouring him but cannot explain why your citizens that were involved in the operation were hunted down and prosecuted after.

                    Do not in any way construe my post as absolving Pakistan of harbouring OBL as at the end of the day. like it or not that is where he was found.
                    Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Aug 12,, 14:34.

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                    • #25
                      AM,

                      You DO realize that this is presidential election season in the land of the Old Glory and the title of the book indicates that it is written with the intent to dispute Obama's signature achievement in his presidency and the narrative that the White House generated, RIGHT?

                      Not all that is printed on paper is true. Just sayin'.
                      All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                      -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                        AM,

                        You DO realize that this is presidential election season in the land of the Old Glory and the title of the book indicates that it is written with the intent to dispute Obama's signature achievement in his presidency and the narrative that the White House generated, RIGHT?

                        Not all that is printed on paper is true. Just sayin'.
                        I completely understand that, but why then is it so hard to accept the fact stated by US Government and Military officials time and again that there is no evidence of Pakistani complicity in hiding OBL?
                        Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                        https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                          True, as yet, there is no clinching evidence here, its circumstantial.
                          There is only speculation based on the location of OBL's compound, not one bit more.
                          Because prima facie thats the way it looks. Guillty by association.
                          That same justification, when used by Pakistanis to point to Indian, US and Afghan complicity in terrorist attacks in Pakistan, is dismissed as 'paranoid conspiracy theories'. Why should this narrative be treated any differently?

                          Hang on a minute.

                          My reply was to counter the book's claim that the Paks were involved or complicit in the apprehending of OBL. To which i've posed a challenge (Pari's actually) which you've not answered.
                          Going back to Afridi - not sure why you consider the current charges against him to be 'trumped up'. And yes, I do agree that the charges against Afridi (the treason ones, which are legitimate) do poke a big hole in the argument that Pakistan was aware of the details of the operation, as does the fact that Pakistan would have probably taken him out itself or in a joint operations.

                          It would seem you want to believe Pakistan assisted in capturing OBL and therefore are not complicit in harbouring him but cannot explain why your citizens that were involved in the operation were hunted down and prosecuted after.
                          I do believe that Pakistan provided critical intelligence that allowed the US to put together various pieces and track down OBL, but I am not saying that I believe the account presented in this book - I posted it to point out that there are various unconfirmed accounts floating around.
                          Do not in any way construe my post as absolving Pakistan of harbouring OBL as at the end of the day. like it or not that is where he was found.
                          He had to be found somewhere - he couldn't exactly vanish from the face of the earth now could he?

                          The facts are that there is nothing other than speculation and a desire to scapegoat Pakistan that is driving these allegations of complicity.
                          Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                          https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Why would Pakistan be scapegoated?

                            The impression I got from a half world away is that there are/might be at least 2 fractions in Pakistan which are not coordinated. One that flirts with extremists and another one that is seeing the danger of it. They are somehow interwined and that's why we (abroad) get a picture of Pakistan as two faced country. Once the internal power struggle is over it will be clear where the country is headed.
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                              Going back to Afridi - not sure why you consider the current charges against him to be 'trumped up'.
                              The americans have said Afridi was an important member in the operation. SECSTATE made a statement as well as the house passing a resolution to deduct $30 million out of your aid for each year he has to serve.

                              All this just for a foreigner ?

                              So i'd have expected him to be honoured maybe in line for a corresponding award and not detained. Afridi was caught trying to leave at the Afghan border in Sept last year. He'd been languishing in a prison until his tribal court hearing in May this year.

                              Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                              And yes, I do agree that the charges against Afridi (the treason ones, which are legitimate) do poke a big hole in the argument that Pakistan was aware of the details of the operation, as does the fact that Pakistan would have probably taken him out itself or in a joint operations.
                              Good, but AFAIK Afridi has not been charged with treason yet. They got him on something else, had posted the tribal courts ruling from DAWN in the afridi thread earlier. Not a lot of details just what some intelligence people said.

                              At the time the recommendation had been made that he be charged with treason. That was what made the news and mislead people into thinking he had actually been charged with treason, but it was incorrect. Nevertheless, attempting to charge him with treason is in itself incriminating given what the americans have said.

                              Going on the assumption that OBL is an enemy(?) of Pakistan who is member of the GWOT coaltion.

                              Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                              I do believe that Pakistan provided critical intelligence that allowed the US to put together various pieces and track down OBL,
                              You have anything confirmed to support this ? because i've come to believe this was largely an american op.

                              Not referring to the 300 odd perps you helped apprehend but OBL specifically.

                              Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                              but I am not saying that I believe the account presented in this book - I posted it to point out that there are various unconfirmed accounts floating around.
                              its a white wash.

                              Anybody can make up unconfirmed accounts about anything isn't it.

                              Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                              He had to be found somewhere - he couldn't exactly vanish from the face of the earth now could he?
                              Had he been found at the border you'd have a better chance. But not in Abbotabad.

                              Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                              The facts are that there is nothing other than speculation and a desire to scapegoat Pakistan that is driving these allegations of complicity.
                              I can't see how you can play those suspicions down. Its a PR loss for you.

                              And i'm expecting Pakistan to make moves to counter that perception.

                              This book is the first i've heard about, doubtless there will be more ;)
                              Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Aug 12,, 18:11.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                                The property was also sold to an individual named 'Arshad Khan' and not 'Osama Bin Laden'.
                                "Arshad Khan" - a/k/a Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti - was the most trusted bin-Laden courier. He was killed during the Abbottabad raid after he emerged from the guesthouse firing an AK.

                                He initially attracted the attention of the CIA while in Peshawar and was subsequently followed to Abbottabad. He made a crucial mistake in neglecting to use a "clean" cell phone while contacting a known member of al-Queda. This cell call was intercepted by the NSA. In the conversation, al-Kuwaiti referred to "the tall man". From that moment on, the US intelligence community used all available means - including national assets - to identify the residents of the Abbottabad compound. From satellite imagery, analysts mathematically calculated that a man seen walking within the compound was at least 6'5" tall.
                                sigpic

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