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India, US set to ink $1.4bn deal for 22 Apache helicopters

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Doktor View Post
    The Col says sappers get everyone pampered.

    Imagine working in IA resupply warehouse. Someone, at some poit will get a brand new LCD for their helo.:bang: Hope it wont be Made in Russia.
    LCD???....that is peanuts man.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by YellowFever View Post
      I want to ask the Indians on the board this question:

      Are you guys satisfied with the way your government conduct their arms aquisition?

      From an amateur's point of view, it seems like they're more worried about the politics and preoccupied wih the "we want to spread this around" mentality as far as aquiring arms are concerned.
      And the US system of defense acquisition is different HOW?
      "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Stitch View Post
        And the US system of defense acquisition is different HOW?
        I think the gist of the argument, the dissatisfaction, is the requirement to import modern systems. The big three (USA, Russia, China) have the luxury of a 97% domestic acquisition process, which greatly eases supply and logistics.

        This thread brought a question to mind re: attack helicopters, specifically the low-tech vs. high-tech approach. Let's look at the Cobra vs. the Apache. I'm having trouble finding the flyaway cost of these, but for the sake of the argument, let's say you could buy 2.5 Cobras for the price of 1 Apache.

        I know little about attack helos, and it'll show, but isn't the bulk of the technology in the armament it carries, specifically the AT missiles? Equip both with price-appropriate night, thermal, IR systems, and the needed technology to successfully fire a Hellfire equivalent. Cannon or chain guns are cheap; equip as desired. Would the Apache be 2.5X as capable? It'll be more survivable, perhaps.

        This argument is similar to the "mount 6 AIM-9X on a BAE Hawk and have at it", which you hear quite often, and there may be something to it. If I were a commander of a large armored force, an enormous fleet of low-tech attack helicopters would give me nightmares.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by lemontree View Post
          No doubt air power is supreme and a terror for armd units, but you cannot imagine what a couple of fire units of arty can do to an armd thrust. Then what ever is left will be chewed up by own AT assets (inf and mech or supporting armd units).
          I'm sure you are right Captain but considering the disaster that is the IA's Artillery procurement, having a few alternatives would be welcome I should think.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Tronic View Post
            We're dissatisfied in terms of the long tedious process of arms acquisition. We'd wish for them to go a bit faster.
            Too many checks and balances or just red tape ?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              Too many checks and balances or just red tape ?
              Red Tape, and the painstakingly slow bureaucrats. Takes a decade for a file to move from one desk to another.
              Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
              -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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              • #37
                Why is it tolerated?
                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                  Why is it tolerated?
                  That's just how the government's work culture is. India grows despite the government, not due to it. The media will expose these lazy governmental bureaucrats once in a while, which results in them being transferred from one department to another, but than its back to the same. There's a well known South Asian proverb which applies here, it translates into something like, "a dog's tail will remain curved no matter how much you try to straighten it out".
                  Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                  -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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                  • #39
                    It's gone beyond simple bureaucratic lethargy unfortunately. These days the MoD(Ministry of Defense) and the CBI(Central Bureau of Investigation) seem to be more interested in blacklisting vendors at the faintest whiff of corruption rather than actually trying to pin down the culprits and nail them. All you need to do to ensure that a defense deal falls through is to plant a story in the media about alleged corruption quoting unnamed sources and the govt. will promptly ban the manufacturer in question forthright, even before any meaningful investigation is done.

                    In one case (IIRC one of the gazillion failed Artillery procurement attempts) these worthies blacklisted all but one of the manufacturers who had submitted bids. Now according to their own rules no procurement is allowed in an open tender process if there is no fair competition. So they cancelled the whole tender and left the Army hanging. :bang: The day is not far when equipment vendors are going to stop responding to any open tender floated by the fickle minded Indian MoD.
                    Last edited by Firestorm; 24 Aug 12,, 23:02.

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                    • #40
                      ^^ I can see that. The problem is, any corporation with more than 12 employees will somewhere, somehow, have "corruption" or criminality in it, if nothing more than the theft of a few pens or a ream of paper. Obviously there are levels of corruption, and when it deals with public funds, you investigate. But to black list a huge entity capable of making something like a tank or helicopter because ONE employee took a small bribe is ridiculous.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Chogy View Post
                        Obviously there are levels of corruption, and when it deals with public funds, you investigate.
                        In a perfect world.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
                          I'm sure you are right Captain but considering the disaster that is the IA's Artillery procurement, having a few alternatives would be welcome I should think.
                          I agree with you, but remember it takes less than 3 minutes to bring down arty fire on a target, (irrespective of air parity). While calling in choppers may take much more time.

                          Cheers!...on the rocks!!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                            Why is it tolerated?
                            The MoD is run by civilian bureaucrats and politicians and the military has very little say in the matter.
                            We do not tolerate it one bit, we just lump it.

                            Cheers!...on the rocks!!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by lemontree View Post
                              I agree with you, but remember it takes less than 3 minutes to bring down arty fire on a target, (irrespective of air parity). While calling in choppers may take much more time.
                              And that's without going into the cost of tubes and shells vs helos and missiles ;)
                              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Chogy View Post
                                ^^ I can see that. The problem is, any corporation with more than 12 employees will somewhere, somehow, have "corruption" or criminality in it, if nothing more than the theft of a few pens or a ream of paper. Obviously there are levels of corruption, and when it deals with public funds, you investigate. But to black list a huge entity capable of making something like a tank or helicopter because ONE employee took a small bribe is ridiculous.
                                Our major problem is a whiter than white Defence Minister.However there are ways around for these black listed companies.

                                The whole saga started with the Bofors guns of Sweden. It is black listed even today. However recently found out India is the largest customer of Swedish Bofors unit(now owned by BAE). They are supplying spare parts to a Indian public defence production agency for the existing Bofors gun. On paper India is buying from a Indian company. Similarly all the black listed companies probably can supply through this route.

                                Thank goodness some one came up the idea of FMS with US. It gives the Indian forces a window to jump over the political maze.
                                Come up with requirements which only US systems can meet. Like... C-17 "ST in high altitude", C-130 "Special forces version!",M177 "light mountain artillery with combat history!" etc.

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