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  • #91
    Originally posted by cdude View Post
    So millions of Jews were killed because there were not enough food to go around? Show me a wiki page that says so.
    One who doesn’t understand the role starvation played in the Nazi economic and military plan should be careful when discussing issues that may quickly raise the blood temperature of those with direct personal connections to the Holocast.

    Here’s your Wiki pages. Come back when you’ve understood them.
    [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan]
    [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Poland]
    [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_...s_(Holocaust)]
    [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_of_the_Living]
    [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto]
    [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution]
    [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost]
    [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum]
    [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_cr...the_Wehrmacht]

    = = = = =

    I should also note that those Jews who did not personally suffer, but had family who did, probably feel something like what the Chinese people may feel.

    Just a thought.
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Linh_My View Post
      The fact that "Fascist" is included by almost everyone as more or less a synonym for Nazism does mean that their isn't really a good short term for authoritarian oligarchy. I find that regrettable. I find Fascist Spain and Nazi Germany to be significantly different.
      Linh_My,

      Apologies in advance for the lengthy answer. This is an area where I have considerable interest. Hope this isn't too boring.

      The reason that you find Nazi Germany & Franco's Spain different beasts is that only one is generally considered 'Fascist'. Interwar Europe spawned quite a collection of Fascist movements, but only two are generally considered to have taken power - Mussolini's Fascists & Hitler's National Socialists. Francisco Franco was a right wing authoritarian, but no Fascist. His alliance to Hitler, some of his political alliances at home and a postwar tendency to label a variety of right wing authoritarian/military dictatorships 'Fascist' has led to some confusion.

      Fascism was/is a particular species of authoritarian oligarchy and a somewhat slippery one to get a grasp on. It has a revolutionary nature. Fundamentally anti-communist & anti-liberal, while also anti-conservative and tending toward a cult of personality surrounding a single leader. It wasn't interested in defending or preserving traditional structures such as Church, Monarchy, class structure etc., but replacing them with a new society based on an idealized national community. Most non-Marxist authoritarian oligarchies are a bit less ambitious.

      Pre-Civil War Spain did indeed have a fascist movement - the falange. It was headed by Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera, son of a recently deposed dictator. The falange was small but active, and quite violent. When the Civil War began Jose Antonio had the misfortune to be sitting in a Republican jail and was promptly executed. The war led to a rapid growth in membership and the movement was absorbed into the hodgepodge of competing political parties & militias that fought the Republic & eventually came under the overall command of General Franco. He was a more traditional conservative, committed to the role of the Church & not much interested in Fascism's revolutionary or socially transformative ideas. What Franco did like was Fascism's party structure & its style. He needed something to bind together an incredibly fractious coalition and this was one of the means he used. It was ultimately successful, though not without hiccups (including violent clashes between falangists & other factions). Jose Antonio also provided the ideal martyr & was lionized & memorialized in absentia.

      While the falange theoretically provided the ideological basis for Franco's Spain, the reality was different. The demise of Nazi Germany confirmed the drift away from Fascism in favour of what Franco described as 'traditional Catholic authoritarianism'. The decision to pursue ties with the US further accelerated the process.

      Sorry if I went on a bit, but it is a fascinating topic. Doesn't help much in your search for terminology, however. :)
      sigpic

      Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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      • #93
        Authoritharian Oligarchy? Isn't that Feudalism 2.0?
        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Doktor View Post
          Authoritharian Oligarchy? Isn't that Feudalism 2.0?
          Depends who is in charge I guess.
          sigpic

          Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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          • #95
            bigfella, there was another fascist dictator in europe - maybe not in the traditional sense, but certainly in application and in sympathy with hitler, franco and mussolini - I think you've forgotten Salazar
            Linkeden:
            http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
            http://cofda.wordpress.com/

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            • #96
              Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
              bigfella, there was another fascist dictator in europe - maybe not in the traditional sense, but certainly in application and in sympathy with hitler, franco and mussolini - I think you've forgotten Salazar
              He was anti everything, even anti-fascism, which he later banned altogether with the Commies. His secret police however...
              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                He was anti everything, even anti-fascism, which he later banned altogether with the Commies. His secret police however...
                quite funny really, as he was to nearly all intents and actions, a text book facsist :)
                a fascist of convenience....
                Linkeden:
                http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
                http://cofda.wordpress.com/

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                  Authoritharian Oligarchy? Isn't that Feudalism 2.0?
                  Doktor, Somehow Feudalism, while an appropriate description of 40 year ago Viet Nam, just doesn't fit today's Viet Nam. I am speaking as someone who owns a "fish farm" in a "tribal area."

                  If you drop the bad historical reputation, Bigfella's definition of Fascism fits Viet Nam reasonably well except for the "cult of personality surrounding a single leader." My prediction is that over the next several decades, Viet Nam follows Spain, Portugal, Mexico and others into a democratic form of government. The movement in that direction since 1995, when I visited Viet Nam for the first time post war, is startling.

                  Bigfella, Thanks. That was interesting and educational. My European experience is limited to mostly book learning. I did visit County Donegal, Ireland for a family reunion in 2008 and had some interesting conversations with an IRA Soldier and some Orangemen. Still, shooting the "Bull . . ." for a few hours is no substitute for actually spending time somewhere.
                  Last edited by Linh_My; 15 Oct 13,, 11:26.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Linh_My View Post
                    Doktor, Somehow Feudalism, while an appropriate description of 40 year ago Viet Nam, just doesn't fit today's Viet Nam. I am speaking as someone who owns a "fish farm" in a "tribal area."
                    I am not following.
                    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                      I am not following.
                      I spent roughly 3 years in Viet Nam 1969-1975. I returned to Viet Nam for the first time, after the war, in 1995, bought a house in Viet Nam in 1997 and have been drifting from simi-retired in Viet Nam to retired in Viet Nam since around 2004. Now days, my wife(of 40 years and Vietnamese) and I visit our kids America for roughly one month once or twice a year.

                      Most of my military service in Viet Nam was in the Mekong Delta near the Cambodian Border in what is now called Dong Tap, where my wife was born and grew up. I doubt that anyone who even set foot in that area for even a few minutes would deny that it was a Feudal Society. Now days our home is in costal central Viet Nam where my wife and I do own a "fish farm." The farm is at the base of the mountains and is located in something somewhat like an American Indian Reservation. This is something of a "hobby farm." Like my wife says, "You can take the girl out of the farm. But, you can't take the farm out of the girl." The "fish-farm was her childhood dream. We could afford it. So why not? It keeps her out of the Cambodian Casinos.

                      We do stay in touch with the in-laws in Dong Tap and follow the farming there. Anyway, farming today in Viet Nam strikes me as being a lot like 1960's farming in Texas. You have large mechanized farms, various sized family farms and part time farms owned and run by people with non agricultural jobs. I see little similarity between the Vietnamese farming of 40 years ago and Vietnamese farming today. Farming 40 years ago was in many ways similar to farming 1000 years ago and definitely Feudal. Farming today is essentially Agri-Business and is not Feudal.

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